Coaxing Germany into Sea Lion

[EmperorBatman999]

Still playing Italy here and I have driven the Brits just about out of the ME and Spain (which I will explain later). Germany and I are both are both at war with USSR and I'm still trying to concoct a plan to invade them (I'll probably hit Crimea, but on my attempt tests spearheading with paras and taking Sevastopol didn't work all that well). The United States is in the war and it is Summer 1941.

I want to get the UK out of the way so I don't need to worry about them anymore and just focus on creeping up the Soviet Union. Is there a way I can coax the Germans into launching Operation Sea Lion? I would back them up if they did this. Or should I just figure out a way to pull this off myself as Italy? If I launched it myself, how much could I trust Germany to make a move to help me? Of course, until Nationalist Spain is helped and the British offensive in Iberia stopped and Gibraltar retaken after the Nationalists' fiasco attempt at the Rock of Hercules, I can't really do anything.

There are a few other concerns of mine for the moment. The British are holding tight in the provinces around the Port of Sudan and I need to get subs and NAVs down there to clip their supply route into the port. They are mostly driven out of the Middle East, with Iraq, Oman, and Yemen all puppeted. They own no more territory. The only problem is that the British are camped in Saudi Arabia with transit rights. How do I treat Saudi Arabia? I want all those British divisions in Arabia destroyed so they can't creep back in and retake territory. Plus, I really rather make sure that the Saudis are not giving the British anymore oil. So should I invade, or are there other choices in persuading the Saudis to join the Axis (or at least evict the British or stop selling oil).

I think Britain has decent relations with Persia too, and I strongly suspect that Persia is trading oil to the Allies and giving Britain transit rights. I suppose that since America is on the Allied side, there's not a whole lot I can do now to deprive the British of oil anymore since they have such a massive oil producer on their side. I suppose "Operazione Cristoforo Colombo" will need to deal with that someday.

 

[Makje]

Are you sure you have your strategic priorities in order?
If you and Germany are at war with the USSR, those German units are needed in the eastfront, not opening a new front inside the UK. Really to get things in perspective: the SU is a big red monster. Defeat it and you can win all, lose and you will lose everything.
Taking out the UK can help turning all attention to the war in the East, but will not win that war in itself at all. But it should be well within the possibilities of a dedicated Italy and since your troops aren't invested in a front with the SU you can reroute them to the Uk without leaving holes on the German lines. In 1941 even with the USA in the war (jut recently i presume) the UK is pretty badly defended. Provided you can get ashore you need only a few corps or an army or so.
(so start killing his navy early, it takes time with a navy that big)

When you have the Med secure you can use all your units on the UK as you do not need to defend you home soil, at least until the Soviets are at your doorstep which you are probably wanting to prevent anyway. A few antipartisan units in whatever territories you conquered should be enough. So your priority should be to free up your troops for an invasion.
You have conquered Egypt and the like, the UK has sudan and i presume ethiopia. Do you care for Ethiopia and thereabout? it's worth nothing and takes a lot of walking to get back. The infrastructure between Ethiopia and Egypt has an inpassable province so you are clear there. Just use your subs to harass some convoys and hold some UK ships there and other than that there isn't much to gain there...

SA is still out of the war i presume? then UK can not attack your provinces from SA. Only if there is still a britsh/frienly province for them to get into from SA they cannot invade you there. SA isn't worth much, there is very few oil there so conquering it isn't worth your time or antipartisan units. You could puppet them, but invading the UK and then helping out against the SU should be far more of a priority.

Persia is another big unimportant country. Yes there is oil there, but do you care? Nobody has any real oil shortages except perhaps your own Italy. The UK certainly does not need Persia and it's oil. Taking it does open up a new front to the SU if you wish to attack from there, but logistics will be a pain and SU probbaly has quite a few units defending there. Only if you really wish to attack the SU underbelly you want to take Persia. Otherwise the SU will take your Persia, Iraq and North Africa from you.... Besides even if you have taken Persia the UK will attack you from India meaning you have to defend it's Eastern flank. Leaving Persia be means your Iraq and Med conquests are secure from enemy attack, at least for now.

Offcourse if you are roleplaying more than gaming then you might wish to follow your political estimates of SA and Persia leadership and attack them anyway.

 

[Kovax]

Taking the UK's home islands is well within Italy's capability in this game. I've even done it with Hungary, and the Germans finally sent a couple of divisions to assist (they managed to occupy around 3-4 provinces) after I already had about 3/4 of the isle taken on my own. Getting the troops ashore in spite of the Royal Navy is the only really hard part, because most of their army has likely already been redeployed to the Middle East or Far East, and even that's only a challenge if you haven't already converted most of the RN into one-way submarines.

As Makje puts it, do you have your priorities in order? You really don't want to distract the German AI, otherwise it's likely to pull 75% of its troops off the front lines deep in the Soviet Union to go sight-seeing in London.

 

[marxianTJ]

Piggy-backing off of Makje, basically if you don't take the UK yourself as Italy BEFORE 1941, you're going to have to wait until the after the USSR is dealt with - there's already a pretty sizable chance that the Germans will fail there regardless - I doubt the Germans would even help much.

As far as things you can do.

1. You can distribute your troops as an anti-partisan force through occupied Europe. The German AI is *really* bad about turning around way too many units to deal with partisan revolts - which often leads to the USSR winning due to a collapse on the front. Preventing that is pretty handy. Then the remainder of your army can adventure around the British Empire, or assist Germany by pressuring the Soviets in the Caucus and/or Crimea.

2. You can give ~ full 1 army to Germany as an expeditionary force. The benefit of this is that the troops wont drain your MP pool by fighting the Soviets, but your troops and generals will gain a tremendous amount of experience once you get them back at the end of the war. It also prevents the AI for doing anything weird with frontage.

3. You can open your own front in the South of the USSR - although this can be very effective, I find the German AI sometimes gets really confused about what is going on in your separate Italian front and if you over extend yourself it can cause the whole front to collapse and the Germans won't render you any aid - which can lead to the whole invasion failing

As far as invading the UK (before Barbarossa starts or after it is done) you've got a few options. You can bring your own invasion force and land. If for some reason you've not got an army sufficient for fighting in the UK, or your navy was completely destroyed when you tried to take the Med (rare, but it can happen) then you can simply build a large number of landing crafts or transports, and give them to Germany as expeditionary forces and set an AI objective on England - the German AI will *eventually* use them to knock out the UK. The tragedy with enabling the German AI to do it, is that you won't get the spoils. If you still have a navy and a sufficient army and transports, you can invade the UK at your leisure - and your IC will be increased massively. If you have to wait until after Barbarossa, but have a small army, you can land in the UK first and then turn *some* of your transports over to Germany and set an allied objective in England to see if they'll come help you out to push you over the edge - and since they'll likely land in Italian held territory they'll conquer the UK for you

 

[Afganitia]

Germans rarely do sealion. I have see them do it sometimes, but it is more normal that Italy does it. A player with 8-12 divisions depending on your skill have enough for conquering the islands. You only need some ships to protect you tps.
As Italy in 2 months is done. Germany will be grateful, and your leadership will increase tremendously.

Go for SA and Suez canal effects. Puppet, of course. For the soviets, direct fighting is not needed. Puppet Iran if they are not in the axis. Help them. Between 5 and 10 weak infantry divisions are enough for them to hold the line. You don't need more. Make the Japs attack. Send the troops to Finland. Finland must not fall. If it does not fall, then you will win without even sending any troops. The soviets have too many fronts to protect the Germany front.

 

[EmperorBatman999]

So it looks like this is going to a DIY job for Italy and I suppose I'll get to work now building more units for the offensive as the rest of my Western Army saves Spain and grabs back Gibraltar.

Before I do this, I'm considering possible invasion routes. How worth it is it to invade Ireland and make them into a staging ground for a strike into Northern Ireland and then a hop over to Scotland?

Is it safe to say that I have sufficiently hurt the Royal Navy by sinking the Hood and another ship? I get events every now and then about the next "Pride of the British Navy."

 

[marxianTJ]

I find it's easiest to cross via the channel - you can usually get your naval units rebased there - and then have your units walk through Germany to whatever port in France you've got your stuff based at - it's easiest for the channel because you can have a fleet on either side of your landing ships and not have to worry about them being attacked or the fleet having to be massively penalized for fighting in the same tile as a pile of transport ships

 

[Kovax]

First, sinking the Hood and another ship can in no way be called "sufficiently hurt the Royal Navy". In one GER game, I sunk 11 UK BBs, 2 BCs, at least half a dozen CAs, and a horde of CLs and DDs, plus one CVL and some transports. At that point, the RN was unable to muster enough ships to seriously oppose a landing, and made an attack on my invasion fleet with nothing more frightening than a single CL and a couple of DDs. Sinking one BC and another ship is a proverbial "drop in the bucket".

Ideally, you want to cordon off a stretch of shore with protective fleets stationed on either side, so the enemy can't reach your transport group without fighting its way through at least one of those fleets first. Those old WWI battlewagons and obsolete destroyers that Germany starts out with are sufficient to hold off the RN long enough to get troops ashore, although that's a suicide mission for the ship crews. With Italy's fleet, you should be able to present a more serious obstacle and have most of it survive and break off from combat once you've successfully made the landing.

On the other hand, in one game I used a lone sub as a spotter, and was able to sneak a transport fleet across the channel while the RN was distracted by a lone DD in another sea province some distance away. It took about 3 or 4 aborted attempts where my transports had to dash for the nearest friendly port until the situation was right. By the time the UK fleet arrived, my first wave was ashore, and my transports slipped away untouched. Once I had control of a port on the English side, I could send the transports across by night with little risk. If Hungary (with one captured port and no starting navy) can conquer the British Isles using no more than a single submarine, a lone destroyer, and 3 transports to deliver around 2 Corps of infantry, then Italy should have NO problem.

 

[EmperorBatman999]

I've lost count of how many British ships I've sunk, but one thing I know is that I've stopped seeing British ships in the Mediterranean and I've won several battles against them. I am assuming I'm doing well because Britain has lost a lot of its lead ships to me. Their ships may still be out there, but I hope I have the upper hand now.

Although, I do control both sides of the Suez, so perhaps the reason I'm not seeing anymore enemy ships is because the RN cannot enter that way anymore.

 

[Kovax]

I've lost count of how many British ships I've sunk, but one thing I know is that I've stopped seeing British ships in the Mediterranean and I've won several battles against them. I am assuming I'm doing well because Britain has lost a lot of its lead ships to me. Their ships may still be out there, but I hope I have the upper hand now.

Although, I do control both sides of the Suez, so perhaps the reason I'm not seeing anymore enemy ships is because the RN cannot enter that way anymore.

You can use the statistics tab and switch to the sinkings screen to seen exactly how many ships you've sunk and lost. It lists each nation's lost ships, and what sank them. You can sort by owning country, sinking country, ship type, or various other options by clicking the categories on the top bar.

 

[Daniel Halachev]

The trick is to occupy Gibraltar, Malta, Cyprus and the Suez Channel. Then send a lot of flotillas to patrol on the west and northern coasts of Africa. All these things will block the British Navy and you can get all of Africa without getting an invaion from the US. India and East Indies should be next (from Persia). At that point the Brits should be half-surrendered. If you stack your TPs into big stacks with Destroyers and BBs you can reach the Engish channel and from there - launch an invasion. I suggest you send a dummy fleet with one division on board in the north. They will send some troops there. At that moment:
1. Make Russian cities German objectives.
2. Give the Germans as many divisions as you can as an Exp. F. for the East or just don't give the Exp. F., but move them there under your control as Back-up.
3. Launch the invasion. I recommmend the ports. The less ships they have there, the more troops you can land. But avoid VP cities, as they will have troops there.
It is a matter of time to get Britain. Still, send flotillas to patrol the island. I won't be surprised of an American invasion. Ensure air superiority, too, as the US can send paratroopers!
After you are finished with Britain (you will have time to get all "accuire territories" and puppet the Uk)target the SU. I reccommend If you have taken all accuire territories from the SU to puppet it, too.
At some time you will have ports in South America. Send troops. Launch an inasion of Canada near Otawa. They will surrender in a matter of days. Then attack the USA from the north. After they send troops there, invade them from the south. Conquer. IC and leadership are important.
Puppet/conquer everyone else from thed world.
You have world domination.