Coastal Defense Ship as separate hull type

[Flayer92]

Think enough of the relevant nations in the game used these to justify making them into their own hull classification rather than assigning them awkwardly into the CA or BC categories. High firepower and armor / low speed, range, hit points, cost. Label the category as CD or something.

Germany's pre-dreadnoughts would both fit better under this label than that of a BC. Sweden has a whole range of these that were classified as CAs, BCs, or even BBs in HOI3 depending on start date. Finland had the Ilmarinen and Väinämöinen, Denmark the Niels Juel, Norway the Eidsvold and the Norge, Netherlands had a couple that got labeled CL in the last release, Thailand the Thonburi, also labled CL. Greece's Kilkis and Lemnos would probably fit better under this category than that of CA.

It could even be used for obsolete battleships like the Royal Navy's Centurion and Iron Duke, the French Océan, and the Japanese Settsu to give them in an in-game role without overstating their capability.

 

[krieger11b]

It's not worth the coding and balancing to put in a ship type that was rare and had no real impact on the war. You can always just change the build on your ships to put cheaper, short range engines on them.

 

[Axe99]

I'd definitely be in favour of there being a code for Coastal Defence ships in the game, as they weren't BBs (generally smaller armament, less range and armour, less secondaries and AA) but weren't CAs (stronger armament and armour, slower, less range) and definitely weren't BCs. That said, I understand them being approximated in the base game with various classifications as there weren't that many of them. A number of HoI3 mods had them modded in, and I'm intending to as well (they're a nice easy class to mod in, and there's not many of them, so will be good for me to cut my teeth on).

Totally agree on Germany's pre-dreadnoughts being better coastal defence ships (or CAs) than BCs - coastal defence ships were slow and short-range, and those pre-dreadnoughts were also pretty slow.

On the by, Iron Duke had it's main armament (most, if not all) removed before March 1936, as well as 2500 tons fo armour, and I think Centurion had lost a good deal of its armament as well, so I wouldn't include these as active vessels. Based on a quick wiki of their careers, Centurion did go into the Med with fake turrets to try and scare off the Italians, but that's about as close to combat as either of them got. I thought the Settsu and Jean Bart (to become the Ocean later) had also been disarmed, so they wouldn't really be coastal defence ships as much as hulks that could be re-armed if needed?

It's not worth the coding and balancing to put in a ship type that was rare and had no real impact on the war. You can always just change the build on your ships to put cheaper, short range engines on them.

You could say the same about super-heavy tanks . We also don't know whether we can have negative values on our variants (there's been no evidence we can), so it's likely that coastal defence ships will be a little off in terms of their in-game capabilities compared with their historical capabilities, but you're right in that there's not enough in there for it to be any thing near a critical issue.

As for impact on the war, though, with HoI4's more sandbox approach, historical influence of assets shouldn't be as large a consideration. For example, in Johan's recent Norway game, Norway attacked Sweden. In a game like that, accuracy in modelling the coastal defence ships would have made a significant difference to the game.

 

[Big Nev]

It's not worth the coding and balancing to put in a ship type that was rare and had no real impact on the war. You can always just change the build on your ships to put cheaper, short range engines on them.

No real impact on the war...

Hmm...

Just one example off the top of my head.

Although I don't think it can be stated, categorically, that Sweden didn't get invaded because she had the three Sverige class, I do think it was an important factor. And if Uncle Adolf had tried it, he would have been given a taste of how Sealion would turn out.

Especially when you consider how badly mauled the Kriegsmarine's light units were during the invasion of Norway.

The major BBs like Bismarck couldn't, realistically, fight in the same waters as them and the Scharnhorsts even less!

The Deutschlands were, probably, small enough & of shallow enough draught, but they'd get hammered. It's not just cheap, short-range engines, they had MUCH more armour than a CA (or PB) but their tactical advantage is from having a shallow draught.

I'd love to see coastal defence ships (monitors & a few other bits & bobs) in the game but, to implement them properly, you need a different terrain type for shallow water where large capital ships can't go.

Then you need to teach the AI how to use them properly and not to take them out in to open sea.

 

[Zaku]

These ships were rare and they weren't even produced during the timeframe.(Maybe Thailand built a few in 38 IIRC but those was 3000 ton small ships, none other comes to mind.)
I don't think you need a seperate class for it in the game. Just have them as a lv1 CA and give it a few points in armor and weapons, and none in speed and range.

 

[Big Nev]

About 80% of the RN's battleships and half the Kido Butai* that attacked Pearl Harbor wasn't produced during the timeframe.

Japan only built two battleships after 36.

No, we don't need them. Just like we don't need tank destroyers. But they're not just CAs with a few tweaks. They're special.

And, IMHO, it most certainly would be worth the effort to code shallow water as a terrain type so that these, and many other small ship types, could be better represented or even represented at all.



I can't believe I used the word "only" in reference to Those Two.


Note: Sōryū‍ ' Launched Dec 35, Commissioned Jan 37.

 

[Zaku]

Japan only built two battleships after 36.

And how many battleships were built in the whole world during ww2?
How many coastal Bs?

No, we don't need them. Just like we don't need tank destroyers.

Except TDs were built and used by the thousands during the war.

But they're not just CAs with a few tweaks. They're special.

Just like minelayers, patrol boats, armed commerce raiders, frigates, gunboats, etc. You can't have every kind of ships modelled in this game. You need to take out and abstract the less important types.
I'm sure that there will be a mod to include all these ships, but I don't think we need them for vanilia.

 

[Big Nev]

And how mand battleships were built in the whole world during ww2?
How many coastal Bs?



Except TDs were built and used by the thousands during the war.



Just like minelayers, patrol boats, armed commerce raiders, frigates, gunboats, etc. You can't have every kind of ships modelled in this game. You need to take out and abstract the less important types.
I'm sure that there will be a mod to include all these ships, but I don't think we need them for vanilia.

Agreed.

But for such mod's to work, we need the terrain. Type and sea zones. While I know it was possible to mod-in terrain types in HoI 3 on land, I don't think there was any possibility to create a new type of terrain for shallow water & have it recognised by the core programme with regard to accessibility or penalties/bonuses.

Thinking about it, a terrain type of archipelago would go down well too.

 

[Zaku]

Agreed.

But for such mod's to work, we need the terrain. Type and sea zones. While I know it was possible to mod-in terrain types in HoI 3 on land, I don't think there was any possibility to create a new type of terrain for shallow water & have it recognised by the core programme with regard to accessibility or penalties/bonuses.

Thinking about it, a terrain type of archipelago would go down well too.

Well EU4 has galleys and those get bonuses in closed seas like the Med or the Baltics, so the engine is able to handle it.
Then again, the avarage depth in the Baltics is about 50-60 meters, and that is enough for even the biggest BB.(Yamato had 12 m draft or so.)

 

[Axe99]

Agreed.

But for such mod's to work, we need the terrain. Type and sea zones. While I know it was possible to mod-in terrain types in HoI 3 on land, I don't think there was any possibility to create a new type of terrain for shallow water & have it recognised by the core programme with regard to accessibility or penalties/bonuses.

Thinking about it, a terrain type of archipelago would go down well too.

This is a very good point - we do have the new coastal sea zones in HoI4. If it's possible to give coastal units a bonus in these seazones it might help a bit (basically assuming that the coastal ships leverage their shallow draft advantage, which hopefully they'd do most of the time).

And how many battleships were built in the whole world during ww2?
How many coastal BBs?

Except TDs were built and used by the thousands during the war.

You can't argue based on net numbers, particularly given the different sizes of the unit. Based on that kind of argument, the only thing in HoI would be small arms, grenades and landmines, because nothing else had anywhere near as many built for it.

For an example of scale, the Sverige-class coastal defence ships had around 430 crew each, and weighed in at 7125 tons - the three of them have enough people to crew 300 Stug IIIs (so a division or so of TDs, not that you'd put them all in one division) and enough steel to make over 800.

That said, the most important argument is the impact they had on the part of WW2 they were involved in - and in the Baltic, the coastal defence ships were a potent force, particularly prior to the Kriegsmarine building up a bit. If Germany wanted to go an an early Baltic rampage, before it's built its Scharnhorsts or Bismarcks, those ships should be enough to stop them at least in Sweden's case.

Just like minelayers, patrol boats, armed commerce raiders, frigates, gunboats, etc. You can't have every kind of ships modelled in this game. You need to take out and abstract the less important types.
I'm sure that there will be a mod to include all these ships, but I don't think we need them for vanilia.

We definitely don't need them for vanilla, but there is an imbalance in the level of detail given to the different parts of the war. The smallest piece of land equipment is a tank, crew of 4-5 (I'm not counting trucks, that'd be cheating ) and 15-50 tons, more or less. The smallest piece of air equipment is a single-seat fighter, less than 10 tons. The smallest ship we'll know we'll be building is a destroyer, of around 1300 tons (for a smallish 1936 model) and a crew of over 140. I'm cool with this (it's always been the way with HoI - tanks and planes just seem to have greater grog-appeal), but there's definitely room to improve the level of naval detail without imbalancing the game. I'm very happy getting that detail through mods, but I'd be ecstatic if it ever got some love in the base game.

 

[Zaku]

We definitely don't need them for vanilla, but there is an imbalance in the level of detail given to the different parts of the war. The smallest piece of land equipment is a tank, crew of 4-5 (I'm not counting trucks, that'd be cheating ) and 15-50 tons, more or less. The smallest piece of air equipment is a single-seat fighter, less than 10 tons. The smallest ship we'll know we'll be building is a destroyer, of around 1300 tons (for a smallish 1936 model) and a crew of over 140. I'm cool with this (it's always been the way with HoI - tanks and planes just seem to have greater grog-appeal), but there's definitely room to improve the level of naval detail without imbalancing the game. I'm very happy getting that detail through mods, but I'd be ecstatic if it ever got some love in the base game.

I would buy the shit out of a naval DLC for Hoi4.
A few battle scenarios with more detailed, more diverse fleets then in the base game.
I always loved naval action.

But for the base game, I think these less important ships are good if they are abstracted into a variant.

 

[krieger11b]

No real impact on the war...

Hmm...

Just one example off the top of my head.

Although I don't think it can be stated, categorically, that Sweden didn't get invaded because she had the three Sverige class, I do think it was an important factor. And if Uncle Adolf had tried it, he would have been given a taste of how Sealion would turn out.

Especially when you consider how badly mauled the Kriegsmarine's light units were during the invasion of Norway.

The major BBs like Bismarck couldn't, realistically, fight in the same waters as them and the Scharnhorsts even less!

The Deutschlands were, probably, small enough & of shallow enough draught, but they'd get hammered. It's not just cheap, short-range engines, they had MUCH more armour than a CA (or PB) but their tactical advantage is from having a shallow draught.

I'd love to see coastal defence ships (monitors & a few other bits & bobs) in the game but, to implement them properly, you need a different terrain type for shallow water where large capital ships can't go.

Then you need to teach the AI how to use them properly and not to take them out in to open sea.

You really think those three Stuka-fodder ships were going to stop the German war machine? Even the Type II coastal U-Boots would have a field day with them. The Kriegsmarine got mauled because it was tiny and went against the largest navy in the world. Not to mention one of their biggest ships they lost was from a Norwegian coastal gun and not even a ship.

 

[Denkt]

I guess that the developers could maybe create differen't types of sea terrain, some which give penalty to the largest ships. It seems like the Sverige class will be heavy cruisers and as said they could be given very good armor and guns but poor engine with the model system. These ships did however weight less then certain light cruisers.

The largest ships Sweden produced was the Tre Kronor class and even these did not reach a weight of 10 000 tons.

However as a light cruiser the Tre Kronor class is probably very competitive. It probably had better anti aircrafts ability then many battleships had before the war and it ability to fight ship was probably good enough for Swedens situation.

 

[Midden]

When the heading said costal defence ships, I thought this thread would be about E Boats and PT Boats.

 

[Denkt]

When the heading said costal defence ships, I thought this thread would be about E Boats and PT Boats.

These could be represented by giving bonuses to a navy near friendly coast. That would help a defending navy to fight off hostile invasions.

 

[Midden]

Yes I suppose, or a malus to an enemy fleet parking off your coast.

 

[Denkt]

You probably also get a detection bonus against enemy ships near your coast, however that would probably not help much if the enemy can bring battleships to your coast while yours most powerful ships are something like the Sverige class.

However if you can't make good use of battleships against a country like Sweden then it will be a bit more fair for the minor and you will need to invest into a different kind of navy that use the lighter ships which may not be good for blue sea operations.

Sverige class as I said before will probably be tech 1 (1922 tech) heavy crusier with many points spent into weapons and armor, probably a bit stronger then in real life but it will not unbalance the game.

The Tre kronor class I mentioned will probably instead be light cruisers even though they are larger then the Sverige class. However they will probably be tech 4 (1944 tech) and their powerful anti aircraft armament is probably better represented by the light cruiser. They was kind of light for a light cruiser built around 1944-47 but build year is the most important factor in deciding historical tech year. The Tre kronor class is comparable to US Atlanta class light cruiser which will probably be tech 3 (1940 tech).

The switch from costal defence ships to cruisers was a change in Swedish naval doctrine from slow ships helped by smal crafts such as torpedo boats to faster crusiers and destroyers who could probably operate a bit farther from the coast and thus be more effective against potential enemies.

 

[Axe99]

Aye, the Tre Kronor looked like a good CL with good AA capability (lots of 40mm and its main guns were good for AA as well). In terms of size, Coastal Defence Ships tended to be relatively small, often displacing less than a CL - of what I've come across in my data gathering so far, only the turn of the century Japanese Coastal Defence Ships and the Sverige were large enough to be around that size.

On MTBs, it will depend a lot on what 'levers' we have to play with in terms of game mechanics. If we can give a bonus to coastal ships in coastal provinces, that will make small squadrons of MTBs useful for coastal defence work, and potentially danger against larger ships closer in to the shore (it only took four MTBs to knock out a destroyer in a hit-and-run attack on D-Day, and that has to potentially be one of the most lop-sided engagements in history) or at night in relatively enclosed waters. However, we really don't know enough about what we can tinker with to get them into the game - coastal defence ships are much easier to mod in without a coastal waters bonus or similar, they can be proxied with stats we know we've got to play with.

 

[Big Nev]

Well EU4 has galleys and those get bonuses in closed seas like the Med or the Baltics, so the engine is able to handle it.
Then again, the avarage depth in the Baltics is about 50-60 meters, and that is enough for even the biggest BB.(Yamato had 12 m draft or so.)

There it goes again.

Walter Koenig's voice Botnia Bay? BOTNIA BAY!

And you do know German capital ships had a nasty habit of running aground in the Baltic, right?

But seriously, take another look at the water depths around the islands to the South & East of Stockholm, around Mariehamn and in the Gulf of Bothnia through which the iron ore passes through for half the year.

Big battleships (with 30 foot+ draughts) can't operate in these areas while a coastal defence ship with a 20 foot draught can.

It's good to know the game engine is able to cope with such location modifiers. Actually, that's no surprise as there are land terrain modifiers but (and pardon the pun) I'm out of my depth with how the programme works, if the naval combat engine isn't told to look for terrain modifiers, then it won't right?

I'll leave it now to someone who knows more about modding than I do. Which is probably most of you.

I just hope it can be done.

You really think those three Stuka-fodder ships were going to stop the German war machine? Even the Type II coastal U-Boots would have a field day with them. The Kriegsmarine got mauled because it was tiny and went against the largest navy in the world. Not to mention one of their biggest ships they lost was from a Norwegian coastal gun and not even a ship.

I don't think there is a single class of ship that could possibly be described as Stuka Fodder. The Stuka, in particular amongst the Luftwaffe's aircraft, had a spectacularly dismal record against ships.

And the Sverige class were the same size as your typical merchant ship at only 400 feet long. And while we're on the subject of aircraft attacking shipping, let's not forget that Sweden is the home of Bofors. The Sveriges had a pretty good AA armament, upgraded pre-war to carry quite a lot of the Bofors 75mm, 40mm & some smaller MGs. Certainly a lot better then the merchant ships the Stuka struggled to score hits on.

 

[Axe99]

It's good to know the game engine is able to cope with such location modifiers. Actually, that's no surprise as there are land terrain modifiers but (and pardon the pun) I'm out of my depth with how the programme works, if the naval combat engine isn't told to look for terrain modifiers, then it won't right?

Aye, this is the big question. We know (well, unless something changed since the last time we saw them, I haven't been paying close enough attention to the screenshots) that there are coastal zones, the question is whether the engine will know whether to check it's in a coastal zone, and whether it's possible to give specific units modifiers because of that. My guess (wet finger in the air, no real clue) would be that it doesn't at launch, but we might be lucky enough to get a modifier in at some stage if it's fairly straightforward (which I'm guessing, equally (un)authoritatively, that it should be).