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+1 for the distinction between realism and verisimilitude.

The most important thing for verisimilitude is that the game has to obey its own rules and enforce them consistently. If border are rigid things which prevent travel and are projected by settlement, then they have to be like that all the time, even when it's inconvenient, or the mechanics will be entirely unintuitive.
 
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I disagree with you and it is all about moving the discussion forward and not cluttering the thread. As part of my daily job I do lots of meetings and often with a large amount of people. Think 100+ It is horrible when people everybody needs to say "I disagree with that" or "I agree with that person" it slows down meeting terrible and at an online forum it can bloat a thread. Look at how many agree and disagree there is in this thread. If those had been posts instead, then this thread would be so large that few people would consider reading it. So a comment is not always prefferable, because we don't want 9 out of 10 comment to be "I disagree with X and agree with Y".

On the other hand the agree and disagree button is actuelly really helpful, especially if one or more people explain why they disagree. If for example I start a thread where I suggest that this game needs huge organic ships shapped as huge teddy bears, the first poster under me disagree because he don't want organic ships, but teddy bear ships are cool and the poster afterwards disagree because he think teddy bear ships are silly, but thinks that organic ships are cool. By looking at how people agree/disagree on those three posts we get a good understanding about what the majority of people think when it comes to organic and teddy bear ships.

Yeah the problem is when you post something and people just click disagree and leave you wondering why with no context.
 
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Tim_Ward

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But nobody would have cared if they'd done that to another country, it's just that it was done to 'them'. Nobody has ever complained that their borders are an invisible forcefield, just that the borders of others are as well. This is basically 'I get upset when the game thwarts my plans' problem, and once they're already upset they look for reasons to justify that feeling, so of course the realism arguments come out. You can argue for or against literally anything in a game with realism, which is why I generally consider it a nonstarter of an argument.

Permits me to disagree. When it happens to you, it just throws into sharp relief how arbitrary something is.

Space Boarders themselves are more of a grey area because, as I said, no know really knows how they "should" work but in other games I genuinely do not enjoy exploiting "gamey" mechanics to get one over on the AI. I'm one of those players who likes to be able to tell myself some kind of coherent story about what happened in my games and why, and in general "game mechanics said I should do this, so I did" doesn't fit into that.

I don't think I'm alone in liking to play that way, although I admit it's not universal either.
 
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Denkt

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The reason why games like Master of Orion and Master of Magic have survived so long is mainly thanks to their RP friendliness, these game don't really try to punish or forbid crazy stuff. You can just start the game and start playing it your way:)
 

Tim_Ward

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Yeah the problem is when you post something and people just click disagree and leave you wondering why with no context.

I like it when I make a post with two different points in them and then someone clicks disagrees and I have no idea which one they didn't like so I tend to just assume they disagreed with all of it.

PRO-TIP:

End all posts with "Hitler was a bad person", thus forcing anyone disagreeing with you to be in favour of Hitler.
 
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John Forseti

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Frontier Outposts drain influence, so you can't just spam as many of those as you want, though. Colonies are still important for borders.

You can't just spam as many colonies as you want either though since they drain energy, so I'm not really getting the problem? Since colonies do expand their borders as they become more developped though, you can presumably decomission the outposts as your 'natural' infuence expands to cover them and then build new ones elsewhere?
 
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The reason why games like Master of Orion and Master of Magic have survived so long is mainly thanks to their RP friendliness, these game don't really try to punish or forbid crazy stuff. You can just start the game and start playing it your way:)

Master of Orion 2 was the king of exploiting broken game balance to overcome the massively cheating AI.
 
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If the space empires agrees to stay away from systems containing an outpost station. Why can't there be an agreement to stay away from systems some distance away from a colonized system? Or is the argument that they don't want borders at all?
 

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Fairly certain you can do this, as you won't path through any systems controlled by others. Haven't actually tried it though so can't say for 100% sure.

Ok, this is just cool then :)
 

Rabid

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The reason why games like Master of Orion and Master of Magic have survived so long is mainly thanks to their RP friendliness, these game don't really try to punish or forbid crazy stuff. You can just start the game and start playing it your way:)

OTOH there are people like me who finds games that don't restrict the player in a meaningful way extremely boring. If you can play a game 'however you want', there's no analysis of the barriers the game is putting in your way, and overcoming those barriers, which is where I derive a great deal of my personal pleasure from playing strategy games. If you can just choose any strategy and it will probably be effective then what's the point in playing at all?
 
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Most systems don't have habitable planets so it would be pretty difficult to build a star empire if colonies didn't project borders beyond their system.
Seems perfectly logical. But we seen a game on medium sized map with 600 star systems(?) where Empires start to cut each other off from available space almost right after the start (remember those poor guys who gave everything away to Blog because they were stuck between 2 aggressive empires with almost no territory?) - is that kind of gameplay a "normal" experience or on "normal"(default) settings we are supposed meet other alien races a whole lot later? In this case border mechanic makes more sense.

I have written it several times in the other topic that with mechanics like divergence drift tied to happiness (tied to planetary type) and special events (like asteroids/pirates) one cannot transfer colony rush experience from the other games. You will not have ideal planets in close proximity most of the time to make it worth dumping all your resources in building new colonies alone.
You don't have to transfer the whole experience. And it's not only colonies that matter - all those star systems you get even without habitable planets contain a whole bunch of resources, anomalies and other stuff and you deny other Empires from obtaining. That's a lot.
 
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Wizzington

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The Blorg game was definitely unusually squeezed for a standard game. Particularly since our back is up against the edge of the spiral arm, which we can't cross without better FTL tech.
 
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Denkt

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OTOH there are people like me who finds games that don't restrict the player in a meaningful way extremely boring. If you can play a game 'however you want', there's no analysis of the barriers the game is putting in your way, and overcoming those barriers, which is where I derive a great deal of my personal pleasure from playing strategy games. If you can just choose any strategy and it will probably be effective then what's the point in playing at all?
Most games do have barriers, the thing is that Master of Orion you can really feel the difference between two races and in HOI4 you can create artillery only battalions if you wan't but it may not exactly be the best way to play.

It is fun to see what you can do while still playing with the rules the game have, you don't play to win you play to have fun.

You can play Stellairs without never colonizing a planet only gathering resources from other systems with the help of space stations. It is not the best way to play but Stellaris allow you to play that way.
 

John Forseti

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The Blorg game was definitely unusually squeezed for a standard game. Particularly since our back is up against the spiral arm, which we can't cross without better FTL tech.

That reminds me, the Blorg used Warp Drives but didnt always take the most direct route to their destination. Does this mean warp ships need to stop at stars occaisionally to 'refuel' or something?
 

Wizzington

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That reminds me, the Blorg used Warp Drives but didnt always take the most direct route to their destination. Does this mean warp ships need to stop at stars occaisionally to 'refuel' or something?

Warp is limited in how far you can go in one jump. The limit goes up with better warp tech.
 
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Dessic

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Sure, immersion is important, but just because people are complaining about something from a realism standpoint doesn't mean the root cause of the problem is lack of immersion, because as I said, once people are bothered by something they will seek out justification for their feeling and realism is a super-easy way to critique a game... because games are not realistic.

Hm, true enough. To be honest, I really didn't think much about the borders in the first Blorg video because they never got to the point of interacting with any neighboring empire, so I didn't realize the hard 'lockout' effect they had on other empires. It was only explained that the outer edge was the Blorg Commonality border (without explaining the in-game effects of that) and that the inner region marked by the dashed line was the Blorg's sensor range. It was only after I saw how large and instantaneously the Tebedoran empire grew and the effects that had on activity in neighboring star systems that I started to think about how plausible or not that effect was. It may well be that I value that more than others.

An example I can think of from the Blorg video:
"While we're building this colony on Qirbus we are using a tremendous amount of energy for the next 12 months."
Dessic: . o O (Okay, that makes sense. Setting up a colony on an exoplanet would take a huge amount of effort and resources.)

"Oops, the Tebedorans have finished a colony on Ziamori, so that instantly locked us out of all activity on Ereness and Errai. Shucks."
Dessic: . o O (What? They instantly gained unilateral control of what might later become a sector just because they colonized one planet?)

I can't speak for anyone else on their thought processes, of course. :)

Most systems don't have habitable planets so it would be pretty difficult to build a star empire if colonies didn't project borders beyond their system.

I never had much problems in MoO2 with this, because none of the alien empires had borders that projected beyond their own colonies either. Your empire consisted of the star systems you had colonies in, and your sensors could still observe ships moving within a radius of your star systems dependent on your technology. I fully understand that it creates challenges for small empires, but those challenges will be faced by all empires at the start of the game.

It seems to me that part of the reason to keep things the way they are is for the aesthetic look of the galaxy map -- the neat colorful regions are reminiscent (perhaps intentionally so) of games like CK2 and EU4. That's not to say it's a bad thing, but if it starts to interfere with the illusion of plausibility it's value should be reexamined, IMO.
 
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