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Colonizor48

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Make clerks produce 2 admin cap each and incresse admin cap from beurocrats by +5% per clerk.
 

GOLANX

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Idk about admin cap, it's certainly original but I don't know how clerks would increase it.
 

Tamwin5

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A few admin cap from clerks would be fine. Personally I'd go with 1.

A global percentage bonus from clerks is a hard no though. That just stacks way too easily, way too fast, and it doesn't even make sense that a handful of clerks would increase the productivity of EVERY bureaucrat on the planet. Even at 1% I'd say it would be too much.
 

Colonizor48

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A few admin cap from clerks would be fine. Personally I'd go with 1.

A global percentage bonus from clerks is a hard no though. That just stacks way too easily, way too fast, and it doesn't even make sense that a handful of clerks would increase the productivity of EVERY bureaucrat on the planet. Even at 1% I'd say it would be too much.
No it only applies to beurocratts on that planet. It gives that because the clerks process the data that the bureaucrat use. Freeing them up to do actual governing more. Maybe now that i think about it clerks should give +1 admin cap and +0.2% to admin cap directly after any other flat bonuses are applied. Making them more useful in the lategame where you have more base admin cap.
 
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Tamwin5

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No it only applies to beurocratts on that planet. It gives that because the clerks process the data that the bureaucrat use. Freeing them up to do actual governing more. Maybe now that i think about it clerks should give +1 admin cap and +0.2% to admin cap directly after any other flat bonuses are applied. Making them more useful in the lategame where you have more base admin cap.
I said it applies to bureaucrats on the planet, re-read my original post. The trouble with a bonus like this, which applies to every job, is it gets exponentially better the more pops you have. That just isn't good game design, at least with how stellaris is designed. In order for it to be balanced it has to never be worth stacking, which means it's effectively negligible. If you could do something like "each clerk gives 1 bureaucrat +2 admin cap" then it would work, but something that complicated is just a whole lot of coding and checks (and thus performance) for ultimately very little gain. Ultimately simplicity and elegance are key aspects of game design, especially for player suggestions on the forums. +1 (or 2) admin cap from clerks is a nice tiny buff with a nice bit of flavor, representing some of that paper pushing and other clerk based jobs (as opposed to just the basic store clerks they currently represent).
 
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Colonizor48

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I said it applies to bureaucrats on the planet, re-read my original post. The trouble with a bonus like this, which applies to every job, is it gets exponentially better the more pops you have. That just isn't good game design, at least with how stellaris is designed. In order for it to be balanced it has to never be worth stacking, which means it's effectively negligible. If you could do something like "each clerk gives 1 bureaucrat +2 admin cap" then it would work, but something that complicated is just a whole lot of coding and checks (and thus performance) for ultimately very little gain. Ultimately simplicity and elegance are key aspects of game design, especially for player suggestions on the forums. +1 (or 2) admin cap from clerks is a nice tiny buff with a nice bit of flavor, representing some of that paper pushing and other clerk based jobs (as opposed to just the basic store clerks they currently represent).
The bonus would not be 0.2% +0.2% on top of that. It wouldnt be exponential. All of the 0.2%s would be added up and then applied. It is literally like 7 extra calculations per month per empire. And the calculations are very simple.
 

Pancakelord

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This does make me wonder... what if you went the other way?
Make Clerks increase the output of RULERS (in addition to whatever they do now). With each clerk increasing the output of rulers by 1-3% (balance pending).
(And possibly specialists by 1-2% each).

1617978968842.png


Could lead to a few interesting planet builds. It might even make places like tourist worlds or ecumenopolis leisure districts (I almost never build more than 1-2) more appealing.
 
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Colonizor48

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This does make me wonder... what if you went the other way?
Make Clerks increase the output of RULERS (in addition to whatever they do now). With each clerk increasing the output of rulers by 1-3% (balance pending).
(And possibly specialists by 1-2% each).

View attachment 702341

Could lead to a few interesting planet builds. It might even make places like tourist worlds or ecumenopolis leisure districts (I almost never build more than 1-2) more appealing.
Wait i actually like this better. Clerks should do that and produce 1-2 admin cap each. And while were at it it would make sense if administrators produced a small aount of admin cap. Around 4 or so.
 
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Tamwin5

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The bonus would not be 0.2% +0.2% on top of that. It wouldnt be exponential. All of the 0.2%s would be added up and then applied. It is literally like 7 extra calculations per month per empire. And the calculations are very simple.
If you have one clerk, it produces 2 admin cap, then applies +0.2% for a total of 2.004 admin cap produced. If you have 100 clerks, then each produces 2, then applies 100*0.2% for a total of 2.4 admin cap per, or 240 admin cap for all of them. This is exponential growth, since the more clerks you have the more EVERY clerk produces. If you were able to cram 1000 clerks onto an ecumenopolis, then each would produce 4 admin cap, and you'd get 4000 admin cap. It is admittedly only a very minor amount of exponential growth, but that's because if it was any larger it'd be WAY too strong at higher values. For most cases, where you have under 10 clerks on a planet, the percentage bonus will effectively be irrelevant.

The thing I said would be way too many calculations would be if each clerk gave a bonus to a single bureaucrat. That would take a bit more than 7 calculations.

Something that's important to remember when talking about clerks, is that clerks are not supposed to be a good job. Their advantages is that they don't take upkeep and you get a lot of jobs. Useful in late game when you have more resources than you could ever really need and need to just deal with unemployment, but that's about it. If you buff clerks to the point where they become anything better than ok, a lot of stuff gets out of wack.
 

Colonizor48

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If you have one clerk, it produces 2 admin cap, then applies +0.2% for a total of 2.004 admin cap produced. If you have 100 clerks, then each produces 2, then applies 100*0.2% for a total of 2.4 admin cap per, or 240 admin cap for all of them. This is exponential growth, since the more clerks you have the more EVERY clerk produces. If you were able to cram 1000 clerks onto an ecumenopolis, then each would produce 4 admin cap, and you'd get 4000 admin cap. It is admittedly only a very minor amount of exponential growth, but that's because if it was any larger it'd be WAY too strong at higher values. For most cases, where you have under 10 clerks on a planet, the percentage bonus will effectively be irrelevant.

The thing I said would be way too many calculations would be if each clerk gave a bonus to a single bureaucrat. That would take a bit more than 7 calculations.

Something that's important to remember when talking about clerks, is that clerks are not supposed to be a good job. Their advantages is that they don't take upkeep and you get a lot of jobs. Useful in late game when you have more resources than you could ever really need and need to just deal with unemployment, but that's about it. If you buff clerks to the point where they become anything better than ok, a lot of stuff gets out of wack.
Yeah but they should still have a place. Read pancakelords idea above. I like his better. Where clerks give specialist and ruler output bonuses per planet in adition to producing 1 admin cap.
 

Piggue69

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Something that's important to remember when talking about clerks, is that clerks are not supposed to be a good job. Their advantages is that they don't take upkeep and you get a lot of jobs. Useful in late game when you have more resources than you could ever really need and need to just deal with unemployment, but that's about it. If you buff clerks to the point where they become anything better than ok, a lot of stuff gets out of wack.
There are a lot less pops in DICK, this may not be true anymore. Clerks will need to be improved, fewer pops and more ways to redistribute them = a dead job.
It needs buffs.
 

Tamwin5

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There are a lot less pops in DICK, this may not be true anymore. Clerks will need to be improved, fewer pops and more ways to redistribute them = a dead job.
It needs buffs.
Clerks are not a dead job, they are a buffer job. Whenever a new pop grows, or if you have to go pay attention to a war for a while, clerks take up the slack. That is the primary role that the clerk job serves. Now, I do think that clerks should be improved a little, and +1 or +2 admin cap per would be the perfect way to do that imo, but they shouldn't be better than technicians, miners, or bureaucrats.