Class Promotion/Demotion feature is Annoying

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Ur-Quan Lord 13

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Ways to make things better:
1. Definitely a grace period between "promotion" and "refuses to demote", whether it's accompanied by anything else or not. A laborer who had to cover for their bosses for a month due to a clerical error will not resist demotion.

2. Potentially, an output penalty or lag when a worker is promoted. If it's the first, #1 is still needed. If it's the 2nd, #1 happens naturally. However, this lag should be shorter than the demotion lag.
 

TehJumpingJawa

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The promotion isn't necessarily strictly or directly "mine slave" to "doctor".
It could well be that everyone effectively moves up a job (albeit most "moves upward" are still within a stratum) - so surgeon jobs become available, doctors move into surgeon jobs, nurse practitioners move into doctor jobs, nurses move up to nurse practitioners, nurse trainees become full nurses, there's now a vacancy for nurses so more students move into that major from other sciences, other degree students move to the sciences, clerks and office workers study the now empty degrees, manual workers move into the clerk/office worker roles, and so on. (If available unemployed "worker" tier pops will then move into the manual worker tier jobs).

Because this is happening across entire population units (which can be millions or even billions of people, depending on your view point) the actual effect on a per-person level is minor - people move up perhaps the equivalent of a couple of thousand dollars or pounds in income; but on a macro level it results in a tranche of jobs worth hundreds of thousands a year causing jobs worth a couple of tens of thousands a year becoming empty.

When conversely a pop demotes there aren't enough jobs at one level lower to move into - the entire pop equivalent of surgeons and specialist doctors can't just take doctor jobs and push the doctors that already exist down a level, and so even though they take the jobs they can within the "educated medical field" tier, there are still a lot left out of work until several years have passed and they've been able to gradually assimilate back into the field, but this reduces opportunities for the lower strata to take jobs in the field, and crucially some of the *just* specialist tier population will be forced back into the "worker" tier resulting in any lasting problems from the demotion becoming visible.

You're applying asymmetrical logic.

If a new job in the ruling strata can be thought of as everyone shuffling up 'a bit', the exact same can be said of losing a ruling strata job; everyone just shuffles down 'a bit', with the pop at the bottom becoming unemployed.

You can't twist logic to defend the indefensible; the current system doesn't make sense, nor does it play well.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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You're applying asymmetrical logic.

If a new job in the ruling strata can be thought of as everyone shuffling up 'a bit', the exact same can be said of losing a ruling strata job; everyone just shuffles down 'a bit', with the pop at the bottom becoming unemployed.

You can't twist logic to defend the indefensible; the current system doesn't make sense, nor does it play well.
The problem with what you're saying is that when a job opportunity at the top is created, it's going to be filled more or less immediately by qualified (or nearly qualified) people below them, and then *that* job opportunity will be filled.
When you remove a job the vacancies one level below don't exist for those people to move back into.

For example (although it's not on a pop level) if two high value companies merge, and there isn't room on the board for the combined boards of the two companies, the exiled board members don't immediately take roles as office managers; forcing office managers to become team leaders, and forcing team leaders to become office juniors. But if a board role opens up then an office manager from *somewhere* will take that role almost immediately the role is created, and then a team leader will be hired into that role - and so on.

Promotion and demotion *is* in many ways assymetric, because of where the vacancies are created, or where the surplus pops are coming from.
 

Eled the Worm Tamer

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You're applying asymmetrical logic.

If a new job in the ruling strata can be thought of as everyone shuffling up 'a bit', the exact same can be said of losing a ruling strata job; everyone just shuffles down 'a bit', with the pop at the bottom becoming unemployed.

You can't twist logic to defend the indefensible; the current system doesn't make sense, nor does it play well.

It plays fine. Proof: I am having more fun than ever. My anecdote has just as much weight as yours.

Though frankly, I think moving strata in either direction should be arduous, people burning savings and clinging to their strata and issues of training up (or in authoritarian regimes making connections and elevating social class). With alteration based on Ethics (Egalitarian cultures move faster upwards, Authoritarian ones downwards, materialists of all stripes move faster in to researcher positions, militarists into solder and enforcer) and events 'planetary recession due to a close in markets X pops on this world spontaneously demote' and 'boon in 'industry' X specialists of [type] filled instantly. as well as Edicts 'conscription: all vacant soldier and enforcer slots are filled, taking pops from most numerous worker on down, then specialist till full, reduce the cost of recruiting assault armies by Y' as examples.

The system (I'm saying this a lot) not instantly doing what you want, indeed even doing things you don't want, is not a sign of a flaw in it (Though there are flaws, that's just it, people painting it as some unplayably broken mess when the truth is just that you don't want to change your approach, is at this point actively wasting brain power and distracting people from spinning up ideas to actually make things better, and our range of choices, solutions to problems, richer still.)
 

Sarno

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If people are making IRL comparisons, I'd honestly like to see an IRL engineer quit their job and go unemployed for 5 freaking years without additional income. They'd be able to sustain themselves for about 6-7 months with their normal spending rate, but definitely not years ffs....

Anyway, this system is basically a major buff to authoritarian gameplay and a massive headache introduction to egalitarian playstyle. In fact, the entire 2.2 has been a mega-buff to authoritarians and a major nerf to egalitarians.
 

TheDungen

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I wouldn't mind it if there could be a switcheroo of sorts when a working class pop could do a specialists job better than him he'd promote up and force the worst specialist down.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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...the problem exists precisely because these *do* exist.
You might have missed the more nuanced view I posted earlier?
I'm not meaning that a specialist job is removed and there's a vacant worker job - I'm meaning that when you remove a top-of-career job that person can't simply take the level of management below them away from the existing holder and so on until someone is forced into the worker stratum.

Rather you have a sulky ex-boss sat around for a bit unemployed and making a fuss until a role comes available, or some time has passed and he's gradually reintegrated by stopping people being promoted over time.
 

The Boz

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You literally said "job doesn't exist". The problem we are discussing is LITERALLY THE JOB EXISTING, BUT THE POP DOESN'T WANT TO TAKE IT. Employing special nuance views and other contexts doesn't change the fact that you are not talking about the same situation.
The job exists. The pop won't take it.
 

Eelectrica

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Seems there's not enough information as to why some pops won't promote. On my ecumenopis I've got heaps of metalurgy jobs open, and heaps of unemployment. Home grown pops seem to find there way, resettled pops just seem to stat unemployed. Doesn't say why or when they'll promote.
 

DreadLindwyrm

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You literally said "job doesn't exist". The problem we are discussing is LITERALLY THE JOB EXISTING, BUT THE POP DOESN'T WANT TO TAKE IT. Employing special nuance views and other contexts doesn't change the fact that you are not talking about the same situation.
The job exists. The pop won't take it.
Yeah, OK.
You entirely missed what I was saying.

Never mind.
 

The Boz

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"It's natural to move up if there is a job. It's natural to not move down when there is no job"
That is what you said. When the topic of the discussion is "why don't they move down when there is a job".
 

Newberg

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I think much would be solved if we had a box to tick: "buildings on this planet start disabled" that makes new buildings built on the planet automatically disabled before anyone takes the job.

(Sorry if this was already suggested, did not read entire thread tbh)
 

skydiver1

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I believe the worst part of this system is how it creates a situation where an educated specialist is easier to train and thus less valuable for your economy than a non-educated worker.
This is counter-intuitive, breaks immersion and is also poor gameplay due to there being a conflict between specialist jobs having higher priority while being easier to find pops to do them, so specialist jobs can break your economy unless you micro a lot.
The mechanic itself is fine but it should be reversed:
- specialist can become worker immediately
- unemployed specialists are renamed to "In Training" and represent a cooldown for a worker becoming specialist (instead of a specialist becoming worker)
 

Eled the Worm Tamer

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I believe the worst part of this system is how it creates a situation where an educated specialist is easier to train and thus less valuable for your economy than a non-educated worker.
This is counter-intuitive, breaks immersion and is also poor gameplay due to there being a conflict between specialist jobs having higher priority while being easier to find pops to do them, so specialist jobs can break your economy unless you micro a lot.
The mechanic itself is fine but it should be reversed:
- specialist can become worker immediately
- unemployed specialists are renamed to "In Training" and represent a cooldown for a worker becoming specialist (instead of a specialist becoming worker)

Well, I think there should be some friction moving down as well, no one likes to see their standard of living cut, and managing the social tensions has the potential to be fun.

But that could be solved in some other way, like a happiness penalty 'recently demoted' that would, in turn, be ameliorated via things like living standards, civics like shared burden and the tradition that presently reduces demotion time.

I'd want training time to be as gruelling as demotion is though (But again things like special education buildings, living standards, edicts even the ability to favour skilled migrants can all fix that if you want to pay the price.

This, in turn, would create something of the developed/developing world separation, where some nations are kept poor because they have to sell their natural resources in order to import manufactured goods from other nations who had a tech edge. Or in stelaris terms selling minerals/rare resources/food in order to buy alloys and consumer goods from nations with more specialists.

Though that might be too much a buff to clerks. But they, in turn, do have higher overhead managing a trade network, so but might balance out.

Otherwise, though I am in full agreement.
 

The Boz

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Well, I think there should be some friction moving down as well, no one likes to see their standard of living cut, and managing the social tensions has the potential to be fun.
Almost as if they should have used happiness more than outright unemployment here.
10 years of -15 happiness per stratum dropped? Better than paying for the tons of consumer goods...
 

Jman5

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If people are making IRL comparisons, I'd honestly like to see an IRL engineer quit their job and go unemployed for 5 freaking years without additional income. They'd be able to sustain themselves for about 6-7 months with their normal spending rate, but definitely not years ffs....

Anyway, this system is basically a major buff to authoritarian gameplay and a massive headache introduction to egalitarian playstyle. In fact, the entire 2.2 has been a mega-buff to authoritarians and a major nerf to egalitarians.

It makes me wonder what sort of governments/Ethic type some people are running who see no problem with the current system. There are some like Hivemind that basically trivializes this issue for various reasons. Or they don't even use certain resource types so balancing it all is a breeze.

I've been playing Egalitarian which probably explains why it's a bit of a headache for me. Can't enslave, can't even resettle pops without pissing them all off and I have to juggle food and consumer goods unlike some of those hivemind types.
 
Last edited:

KingAlamar

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It makes me wonder what sort of governments/Ethic type some people are running who see no problem with the current system. There are some like Authoritarian or Hivemind that basically trivializes this issue for various reasons. Or they don't even use certain resource types so balancing it all is a breeze.

I've been playing Egalitarian which probably explains why it's a bit of a headache for me. Can't enslave, can't even resettle pops without pissing them all off and I have to juggle food and consumer goods unlike some of those hivemind types.

With the exception of the PSI Ascension & Assimilation problems I've had before I normally just don't let myself get into situations where I'm really needing to downshift from specialists to workers. My only game so far is Fan Xenophile, Egalitarian.

The biggest gripes I have aren't necessarily with the system itself BUT with the lack of tweaking to other systems & developing new support and automation systems to help lessen the nearly constant planet-by-planet keeping everything in balance.

Example: Encourage Growth is a planet by planet decision with an expiration date. I'd either want to get notifications for when the decision expires OR have this be a non-expiring decision with month-by-month costs that I could cancel [manually] when desired OR to be able to trust a "governor" to re-up this for me sector by sector.
 

Red-XIII

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I believe the worst part of this system is how it creates a situation where an educated specialist is easier to train and thus less valuable for your economy than a non-educated worker.
This is counter-intuitive, breaks immersion and is also poor gameplay due to there being a conflict between specialist jobs having higher priority while being easier to find pops to do them, so specialist jobs can break your economy unless you micro a lot.
The mechanic itself is fine but it should be reversed:
- specialist can become worker immediately
- unemployed specialists are renamed to "In Training" and represent a cooldown for a worker becoming specialist (instead of a specialist becoming worker)
THIS tbh is the only thing that's bugging me about it so far.
How would YOU like for your dental care to be done by guy that was a miner his whole life?
You think any random farmer can run a research lab?

To be fair though, not every scientist can run a farm either. So demotion DOES have realistic reasons to take long.

However the real question is - are those reasons alone reasons enough?
I don't think so.

Realism never stopped us from shifting pops around in any 4x where pops can be shifted around. Why should now be any different? It's all an approximation anyway. I mean seriously they aren't even single beings, just abstract representation of the spread of society's workload. Can you even imagine what a situation where 2/10 of your entire planet's population instantly dropped mining and became I dunno... professional entertainers? Well if we try to take stellaris' pop movement realistically we'd have to come up with explanation for stunts like that as well.
 

Eled the Worm Tamer

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Without friction moving between strata though, theres no punishment for messing up the state of economy. It would be like the reenforce fleet button replacing them instantly with no build time or trouble traveling to the fleet location. A step back to the brainless non-game of the previous itteration.