No it's about propping up white collar "Brain work" jobs and oppressing blue collar "Grunt work" work, explicitly. That's why it's Academic Privilege, people working with their hands aren't Academics.
Class Promotion/Demotion feature is Annoying
- Thread starter Jman5
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No it's about propping up white collar "Brain work" jobs and oppressing blue collar "Grunt work" work, explicitly. That's why it's Academic Privilege, people working with their hands aren't Academics.
Yeah, I find that this is a bad growth strategy. Resettling pops is only good for unemployed workers pops right now.
Or robots. Resettlement is almost required for new worlds with robots. I tend to yank a bunch of miners from my homeworld to a new world on a regular basis.
I keep seeing the same argument over and over: "But in real life..."
This is a science fiction video game. Balance and fun are the priorities here. The real life argument is ridiculous because we can look at any number of in-game mechanics that are outside the realms of reality for the sake of good gameplay.
Why don't you lose a population when you build a colony ship?
Why aren't there any children or retired elderly to support?
Why are primitive societies at varying levels of development, but starfaring empires all start the year 2200 at 1 of 3 identical tech levels, empire sizes, and fleets? (normal, advanced start, fallen empire)
Why can you be instantly promoted from a miner to a highly specialized researcher, but not the other way around?
Why does 90% of the game shatter the laws of physics?
Why can I just decide genetically modify entire species without consent in egalitarian democratic societies?
Why can a population just move from clerk to farmer to miner to technician with no loss of production but you can't go from Enforcer to technician without being unemployed for years?
The list goes on when you try to evoke the "real life" argument in a science fiction video game.
It's all arbitrary what does and does not follow some semblance of realism. If it leads to excessive amounts of tedious micromanagement, or makes resource management akin to balancing plates while riding a unicycle, then it needs to be adjusted.
The game would run a lot smoother and allow players to focus more on the fun parts of the game if unemployed populations would just slip into open jobs as they become available instead of the system we have now. It's dumb and no one was advocating for this before it was implemented when you could move pops around as you wanted.
This is a science fiction video game. Balance and fun are the priorities here. The real life argument is ridiculous because we can look at any number of in-game mechanics that are outside the realms of reality for the sake of good gameplay.
Why don't you lose a population when you build a colony ship?
Why aren't there any children or retired elderly to support?
Why are primitive societies at varying levels of development, but starfaring empires all start the year 2200 at 1 of 3 identical tech levels, empire sizes, and fleets? (normal, advanced start, fallen empire)
Why can you be instantly promoted from a miner to a highly specialized researcher, but not the other way around?
Why does 90% of the game shatter the laws of physics?
Why can I just decide genetically modify entire species without consent in egalitarian democratic societies?
Why can a population just move from clerk to farmer to miner to technician with no loss of production but you can't go from Enforcer to technician without being unemployed for years?
The list goes on when you try to evoke the "real life" argument in a science fiction video game.
It's all arbitrary what does and does not follow some semblance of realism. If it leads to excessive amounts of tedious micromanagement, or makes resource management akin to balancing plates while riding a unicycle, then it needs to be adjusted.
The game would run a lot smoother and allow players to focus more on the fun parts of the game if unemployed populations would just slip into open jobs as they become available instead of the system we have now. It's dumb and no one was advocating for this before it was implemented when you could move pops around as you wanted.
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And this is the problem right here. Because to me and those like me the bits that you want to cut ARE "The fun parts" savvy?
And I have been lobbying to add more depth to the economy, and to shed the boring tile system more or less since I registerd.
You could make a similar argument about dumbing down warfare so there was no need to concider positioning, logistics, fleet composition or relitave strenghts and you'd be laughed out of the forums. Why is chalenge derived from tension of competing goals in the workings of ones internal economy so much worse and more alien than chalenge derives of competing goals between ones own empire and third parties?
What if pops would instantly demote but with happiness and efficiency modifiers that were reduced over time? That way jobs are filled but the doctor is disgruntled and bad at refilling the slurpee machine for a period of time? Double the penalties for ruling class falling all the way to worker.
That'd make a good edict actually. I'd pair it with some "TRaining time" latency for moving up strata too.
And for an example of how the present system can offer more opertunities I am presently transitioning my universal church of eled megachurch away from mines all together in favour of buying minerals from the market (cheap) and selling a small portion of my Alloys to cover costs, thus offering nicer jobs to many of my pops.
Well then maybe you can point me to the highly voted threads where people were saying: You know guys what this game really needs is for pops to sit unemployed and idle for 5 years every time you try to move them from your science building to your farm building.
What you're defending is not real depth, it's complexity for complexity sake. You have to build districts first before specialist/Ruler buildings because workers instantly promote but specialists take years to demote. Depth would actually be the opposite where there are multiple viable approaches to filling out a world.
What you're defending is not real depth, it's complexity for complexity sake. You have to build districts first before specialist/Ruler buildings because workers instantly promote but specialists take years to demote. Depth would actually be the opposite where there are multiple viable approaches to filling out a world.
For the complainers, it's honestly not that complicated. Don't build when you don't have the workers or can't tolerate the shift.
Just like we have to accept that we don't get to tell each ship where to go and what to fire on during battles, in the economy, we don't get to tell each worker what to work on. Instead, we set up our system to optimize the conditions that lead to better or worse outcomes from the parts we don't control. When building a fleet, you pick a range of ships, weapon types, etc. so that when battle happens, you'll likely have a positive outcome. Think about economy the same way and you'll have a much better time. Except in the economy, you still have far more control than in battle.
My first few 2.2 games, I struggled with unemployed pops and giant economic shifts. But once I understood the system and stopped overbuilding, I have much much fewer problems with pop employment and demotion. I also make use of the market where short term mismatches in workers still cause problems, so that I don't end up in a tailspin. Use the tools available and stop expecting the game to play like 2.1.
That said, I do think there could be a delay for pop promotion (albeit short), and a decrease in the demotion time. That's a balance/tweaking concern, not a fundamental problem.
Just like we have to accept that we don't get to tell each ship where to go and what to fire on during battles, in the economy, we don't get to tell each worker what to work on. Instead, we set up our system to optimize the conditions that lead to better or worse outcomes from the parts we don't control. When building a fleet, you pick a range of ships, weapon types, etc. so that when battle happens, you'll likely have a positive outcome. Think about economy the same way and you'll have a much better time. Except in the economy, you still have far more control than in battle.
My first few 2.2 games, I struggled with unemployed pops and giant economic shifts. But once I understood the system and stopped overbuilding, I have much much fewer problems with pop employment and demotion. I also make use of the market where short term mismatches in workers still cause problems, so that I don't end up in a tailspin. Use the tools available and stop expecting the game to play like 2.1.
That said, I do think there could be a delay for pop promotion (albeit short), and a decrease in the demotion time. That's a balance/tweaking concern, not a fundamental problem.
Especially this. When I have 1 unemployed pop, and I build a speciality/ruler class building with 2 or more jobs, I try to put 1 of the pops back down to worker class but they end up unemployed. A little annoying that.
Yeah, that is an unnecessary lack of control. None of the fixes seem great, but they'd all be better than what we have. The downside of a delay is that you might really want workers to work the specialist jobs like yesterday, but you have to wait (annoying). The downside of having the buildings start as not allowing workers (low priority) until changed by the player is that most of the time, you probably do want promotion and rebalancing, but you'd have to do this manually for every building or district producing specialist jobs, every time it's built. If you forget, you have job slots sitting empty.
But by same token "I want it now but the game is making me wait" happens in reserch, unity, and war (Looking at you asshole federation partner who cant win wars but will start one 5 years of travel from my shipyard) why not economy? If making people wait to feel consequences (clearly comunicated) is bad here why is it ok everwhere else?
I could get behind that if we had a little more control over incentives for workers (as we do in war with different weapon types and ship types).
I once had a problem when I upgraded a colony and it promoted some not citizen species to a leader slot, and then decided the two citizens on the planet were a better idea and promoted them too, leaving the non citizen as an unemployed leader
But otherwise just, don't build specialists you don't want filled. You can leave building slots empty (or fill them with commercial districts or luxury housing temporarily if you really need the icon to go away)
I do think a very short delay (like, a month at most) before promotion might not be a bad idea so you can at least like, build a specialist building and then disable jobs from it before people promote to fill them.
But otherwise just, don't build specialists you don't want filled. You can leave building slots empty (or fill them with commercial districts or luxury housing temporarily if you really need the icon to go away)
I do think a very short delay (like, a month at most) before promotion might not be a bad idea so you can at least like, build a specialist building and then disable jobs from it before people promote to fill them.
Well yeah, I'm a huge fan of the 2.2 econ, but I'd also be the first to admit that the sub-systems and particularly the UI need work.
I'm a big fan too. I hope I'm not coming across as a detractor. But it seems we both agree that tweaks and UI improvements are necessary.
Shouldn't this mostly be filed under "I should be more careful about building"?
How long do you think a barista at Starbucks would take to earn their medical degree?