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R'hllor

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Ok peeps, let's try to keep it civil here. Regardless if you like the mechanic or not, please try when giving feedback to keep it as constructive as possible. I can assure you all, constructive feedback gets heard way better than anything else.
Could you make the game harder without artificial limits? Because they really take away from historical plausibility. For example, its too easy to gain good traits, there's too much income, wars don't affect economy, neither does disease, and more similar basic problems are imo the cause of the game being too easy. Maybe you could, in the future, consider and fix inherent problems like these rather than create out-of-place artificial limits.
 
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Langkard1

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My gut feeling is that coalitions/infamy was ported over with changes from EU because the existing council content in the Conclave wasn't enough to justify charging for a full DLC. Conclave needed to be beefed up and bits and pieces of existing EU systems like coalitions and shattered retreats were chosen as the filler. The implementation seems rushed, poorly implemented, poorly documented and thinly tested prior to release.

It does not matter if the Pope won't actively support the Abbasids with troops, the problem is that the Pope shouldn't be joining a coalition with Muslims against Christians in the first place. It is just silly in a game called Crusader Kings. I think this is an example of the ill-conceived port of EU content into CKII. Make content that is appropriate for the game and its time period.
 
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Pornek

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My gut feeling is that coalitions/infamy was ported over with changes from EU because the existing council content in the Conclave wasn't enough to justify charging for a full DLC. Conclave needed to be beefed up and bits and pieces of existing EU systems like coalitions and shattered retreats were chosen as the filler. The implementation seems rushed, poorly implemented, poorly documented and thinly tested prior to release.

Those features are in the free patch though and not in the DLC.
 
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vukica

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My gut feeling is that coalitions/infamy was ported over with changes from EU because the existing council content in the Conclave wasn't enough to justify charging for a full DLC. Conclave needed to be beefed up and bits and pieces of existing EU systems like coalitions and shattered retreats were chosen as the filler. The implementation seems rushed, poorly implemented, poorly documented and thinly tested prior to release.

It does not matter if the Pope won't actively support the Abbasids with troops, the problem is that the Pope shouldn't be joining a coalition with Muslims against Christians in the first place. It is just silly in a game called Crusader Kings. I think this is an example of the ill-conceived port of EU content into CKII. Make content that is appropriate for the game and its time period.

for the 487345th time. SR and infamy are not part of the DLC! they are part of the *FREE* patch.

that doesn't make them OK, but they're not in the DLC!
 
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theKing1988

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The biggest problem that I see with coalitions? They take into account that the countries that enter the coalition border the target. They don't take into account that the countries that enter the coalition border a country in the coalition.

You are totally hitting a major issue with the current design there. There might be distance restrictions to who can access coalitions at the moment as rageair points out, but because they are based on distance to the target of a coalition instead of on members of a coalition, you end up with non-sensical members of a coalition stretching over enormous distances (targets might be quite a big country or stretch out over quite an area) where defensive co-operation would have been pointless and completely impossible with the 769-1453 Transportation and Communication technology available to rulers.
 
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epicfail1994

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8EC61ABC58D3B9F2DF3013E46F9D5776B2424C09


Looks like I was wrong. However, if I win the war against Italy I get even more infamy and the whole world goes against me. The difference in infamy gain could also be explained by the fact that I spawned more troops last time to play around with the new mechanics.

There's no way I could play this on Ironman now. :/
 

Asiak

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8EC61ABC58D3B9F2DF3013E46F9D5776B2424C09


Looks like I was wrong. However, if I win the war against Italy I get even more infamy and the whole world goes against me. The difference in infamy gain could also be explained by the fact that I spawned more troops last time to play around with the new mechanics.

There's no way I could play this on Ironman now. :/

How are you wrong? You said you got 100 for Bulgaria, you have 100 for Bulgaria in the screenie. Even bringing it down by-3.16 for being the king that is still way to much for one little kingdom even for the ERE.
 
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Audoucet

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Those features are in the free patch though and not in the DLC.

Which is 100% the actual problem. If it was in the DLC, I wouldn't even be complaining here... I would patiently wait for the next DLC, and forget about this one, just like I forget about the Aztec Doomsday invasion.
 
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epicfail1994

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How are you wrong? You said you got 100 for Bulgaria, you have 100 for Bulgaria in the screenie. Even bringing it down by-3.16 for being the king that is still way to much for one little kingdom even for the ERE.
I think I said originally it was 200-700% earlier, that's what I was wrong about.

But yeah, that amount of infamy for one single CLAIM is absurd, and kills the fun of the game for me.
 
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Comrade Chernov

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Coalitions belong in EU4, not in CK2. Plain and simple. I said it on Reddit and I'll say it here - the idea of a coalition is one that only makes sense in the timeframe of EU4.

CK2 is about ruling as the leader of a dynasty and governing your realm and managing your vassals. It is a game of titles, the people who hold them, and the land bound to them, and the management of these.

EU4 is about advancing the interests of a nation-state. There is no tier of titles that link up into higher titles or split off into lower ones. There is merely land up for grabs between regional powers in the struggle for dominance.

A coalition is a group of nation-states that feels that their mutual national interests are at risk of being subjugated by an upstart power. It involves state bureaucracies and institutions and nationalism and lots of little intricate forces and entities that work in tandem to propel a nation-state forward. This is the Napoleonic Wars, this is the Thirty Years' War, this is the Italian Wars, all of which happen in EU4's timeframe. The philosophy behind this style of governance and diplomacy came from people like Machiavelli and other writers in the renaissance, initially applied to the Italian city-states, eventually applied to powers like France and Austria and Spain and England, with great success.

However, this philosophy is NOT within the timeframe of CK2. CK2 focuses on the feudal contract, vassalage and lordship, families vying for power against rival families, calling in their family members and whatnot to assist them. It's more akin to mafiosos, while EU4 is more like corporate interactions.

To put it simply, in the CK2 timeframe a feudal ruler wouldn't give a rat's patootie if some other realm hundreds of miles away was getting big; after all, the ruling families of the two realms weren't interacting, there was no marriage or possibility of inheritance, there may be some sort of trade between merchants but the bourgeoisie weren't influential enough in this time period to have monarchs care about what they thought. Realms did not have the necessary bureaucratic infrastructure or diplomatic mechanisms to even consider forming a coalition. There was no benefit to their House, they were not being called to the defense of a family member or a trusted ally, therefore who cared? It's just simply not the same mindset as there was in the renaissance. Furthermore, if someone was pressing their claim to a title, that was their right to do so, after all, it's about family, they share the same ancestor as the holder of the title, there's no problem with it.

The notable exceptions to this were times such as the Mongols, where there actually WERE groups of realms which worked together to combat them when they were pushing into places such as Hungary and Poland, but a), this was an EXCEEDINGLY RARE OCCASION. As in, the Mongols were considered an existential threat to entire kingdoms in Europe, and, as far as the Christians knew, meant their downfall to a horrific Pagan foe. And b), they were STILL nowhere near the size of coalitions in their current state. The coalition was, if I recall correctly, three, maybe four realms in size? It was Hungary, Poland, and I wanna say the Pope and the Holy Roman Empire as well, though my memory is fuzzy.

This is why it's immersion-breaking, and frankly, not suitable to this time period. It makes perfect sense in EU4, but not in CK2.

Not to mention all the silliness about rulers of your religion joining in the defense of a heathen in a Holy War...
 
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Langkard1

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for the 487345th time. SR and infamy are not part of the DLC! they are part of the *FREE* patch.

that doesn't make them OK, but they're not in the DLC!

You are correct. I habitually use the term DLC for the expansion in general because the changes in the free patch wouldn't exist if they were not developed and then added mainly as part a DLC. In that sense the free patch and the DLC aren't really separate; because the changes in the free patch are a direct result of the changes in the expansion as a whole. I should use the term expansion instead, I agree. I shall endeavor to remember that.
 

Tizazef

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Simply for the reason that there were no coalitions during middle ages, and balance of power didn't exist as a concept. During this timeperiod, realms should fall apart due to internal factors, rather than stay as blobs while their neighbours all magically communicate with each other and are able to know when one is attacked. In other words, the mechanic is an ahistorical and artificial limit that doesn't stop blobbing, but only slows it.
Balance of power wasn't a thing because nation-states weren't a thing. The King of France doesn't actually control all of france - he controls the two duchies and has a daughter married to the duke of normandy but the rest of france simply pledged loyalty to him and can get angry at him if he acts like a dick.
 
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bertxav

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2. If you get a non-aggression pact or alliance with a coalition member, they will instantly leave the coalition against you. This means that it's more important than ever to have a large family and marry them off tactically. Remember that you can use favors to force cross-religious marriages, and as such you can also remove threats of foreign religions from your coalition.

Favor usage. By buying favors off of foreign rulers who are in distress, i.e. when they need money for a costly war, I can force NaP's on them through marriages/betrothals. This has allowed me to force both Christians and steppe people to leave me alone.

Sooooo, what happen when I don't have the DLC? I'm force to fight every guy not in my religious group? Of course I am. And guess what, if I'm a pagan that means the entire world. Since my two favorite start are the Romuva and the Slavic I guess that means I either have to buy the DLC or fight the entire christian and muslim world each time I go to war.

Edit: a word
 
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Sooooo, what happen when I don't have the DLC? I'm force to fight every guy not in my religious group? Of course I am. And guess what, if I'm a pagan that means the entire world. Since my two favorite start are the Romuva and the Slavic I guess that means I either have to buy the DLC or fight the entire christian and muslim world each time I go to war.

Edit: a word

Actually it means you'll have to fight the entire world including those of your own religion if you try to press de-jure claims or push a claim that your family's had for generations. How the steppefolk even know about your exploits escapes me - Temujin should've gotten 100% infamy easily from gobbling up other tribes and China / Turks / France / HRE should've pounded him to dust. What actually happened was the chinese ignored him and the turks barely knew the dude existed until he showed up at their eastern border.
 
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Afinati

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Coalitions belong in EU4, not in CK2. Plain and simple. I said it on Reddit and I'll say it here - the idea of a coalition is one that only makes sense in the timeframe of EU4.

CK2 is about ruling as the leader of a dynasty and governing your realm and managing your vassals. It is a game of titles, the people who hold them, and the land bound to them, and the management of these.

EU4 is about advancing the interests of a nation-state. There is no tier of titles that link up into higher titles or split off into lower ones. There is merely land up for grabs between regional powers in the struggle for dominance.

A coalition is a group of nation-states that feels that their mutual national interests are at risk of being subjugated by an upstart power. It involves state bureaucracies and institutions and nationalism and lots of little intricate forces and entities that work in tandem to propel a nation-state forward. This is the Napoleonic Wars, this is the Thirty Years' War, this is the Italian Wars, all of which happen in EU4's timeframe. The philosophy behind this style of governance and diplomacy came from people like Machiavelli and other writers in the renaissance, initially applied to the Italian city-states, eventually applied to powers like France and Austria and Spain and England, with great success.

However, this philosophy is NOT within the timeframe of CK2. CK2 focuses on the feudal contract, vassalage and lordship, families vying for power against rival families, calling in their family members and whatnot to assist them. It's more akin to mafiosos, while EU4 is more like corporate interactions.

To put it simply, in the CK2 timeframe a feudal ruler wouldn't give a rat's patootie if some other realm hundreds of miles away was getting big; after all, the ruling families of the two realms weren't interacting, there was no marriage or possibility of inheritance, there may be some sort of trade between merchants but the bourgeoisie weren't influential enough in this time period to have monarchs care about what they thought. Realms did not have the necessary bureaucratic infrastructure or diplomatic mechanisms to even consider forming a coalition. There was no benefit to their House, they were not being called to the defense of a family member or a trusted ally, therefore who cared? It's just simply not the same mindset as there was in the renaissance. Furthermore, if someone was pressing their claim to a title, that was their right to do so, after all, it's about family, they share the same ancestor as the holder of the title, there's no problem with it.

The notable exceptions to this were times such as the Mongols, where there actually WERE groups of realms which worked together to combat them when they were pushing into places such as Hungary and Poland, but a), this was an EXCEEDINGLY RARE OCCASION. As in, the Mongols were considered an existential threat to entire kingdoms in Europe, and, as far as the Christians knew, meant their downfall to a horrific Pagan foe. And b), they were STILL nowhere near the size of coalitions in their current state. The coalition was, if I recall correctly, three, maybe four realms in size? It was Hungary, Poland, and I wanna say the Pope and the Holy Roman Empire as well, though my memory is fuzzy.

This is why it's immersion-breaking, and frankly, not suitable to this time period. It makes perfect sense in EU4, but not in CK2.

Not to mention all the silliness about rulers of your religion joining in the defense of a heathen in a Holy War...

I want to Helpful this, Agree with it, hug it, and nail it to the door of the church of Paradox all at the same time.
 
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Coalitions belong in EU4, not in CK2. Plain and simple. I said it on Reddit and I'll say it here - the idea of a coalition is one that only makes sense in the timeframe of EU4.

CK2 is about ruling as the leader of a dynasty and governing your realm and managing your vassals. It is a game of titles, the people who hold them, and the land bound to them, and the management of these.

EU4 is about advancing the interests of a nation-state. There is no tier of titles that link up into higher titles or split off into lower ones. There is merely land up for grabs between regional powers in the struggle for dominance.

A coalition is a group of nation-states that feels that their mutual national interests are at risk of being subjugated by an upstart power. It involves state bureaucracies and institutions and nationalism and lots of little intricate forces and entities that work in tandem to propel a nation-state forward. This is the Napoleonic Wars, this is the Thirty Years' War, this is the Italian Wars, all of which happen in EU4's timeframe. The philosophy behind this style of governance and diplomacy came from people like Machiavelli and other writers in the renaissance, initially applied to the Italian city-states, eventually applied to powers like France and Austria and Spain and England, with great success.

However, this philosophy is NOT within the timeframe of CK2. CK2 focuses on the feudal contract, vassalage and lordship, families vying for power against rival families, calling in their family members and whatnot to assist them. It's more akin to mafiosos, while EU4 is more like corporate interactions.

To put it simply, in the CK2 timeframe a feudal ruler wouldn't give a rat's patootie if some other realm hundreds of miles away was getting big; after all, the ruling families of the two realms weren't interacting, there was no marriage or possibility of inheritance, there may be some sort of trade between merchants but the bourgeoisie weren't influential enough in this time period to have monarchs care about what they thought. Realms did not have the necessary bureaucratic infrastructure or diplomatic mechanisms to even consider forming a coalition. There was no benefit to their House, they were not being called to the defense of a family member or a trusted ally, therefore who cared? It's just simply not the same mindset as there was in the renaissance. Furthermore, if someone was pressing their claim to a title, that was their right to do so, after all, it's about family, they share the same ancestor as the holder of the title, there's no problem with it.

The notable exceptions to this were times such as the Mongols, where there actually WERE groups of realms which worked together to combat them when they were pushing into places such as Hungary and Poland, but a), this was an EXCEEDINGLY RARE OCCASION. As in, the Mongols were considered an existential threat to entire kingdoms in Europe, and, as far as the Christians knew, meant their downfall to a horrific Pagan foe. And b), they were STILL nowhere near the size of coalitions in their current state. The coalition was, if I recall correctly, three, maybe four realms in size? It was Hungary, Poland, and I wanna say the Pope and the Holy Roman Empire as well, though my memory is fuzzy.

This is why it's immersion-breaking, and frankly, not suitable to this time period. It makes perfect sense in EU4, but not in CK2.

Not to mention all the silliness about rulers of your religion joining in the defense of a heathen in a Holy War...

Give that man a cookie. He said very well what i'd be not able to express in english.
 
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TheCommieDuck

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I'm siding with the 'no coalitions' side, sadly.

I think there needs to be something to avoid blobbing, certainly. I think coalitions are not the answer, both mechanically and also in regards to the time period.

You can't declare a CB-less war, so you always have a reason for the war...which is very often legitimate in the eyes of others (claims and dejure wars) rather than plain aggression (invasion, subjugation, conquest). If I push a claim, then clearly somebody in the world recognises that. Why would they be fine with it until the claim succeeds and *then* be annoyed?

Equally if I, as a good Catholic, go take land from a Muslim...other Christians should not start getting angry at me, DOUBLY so if I do it in the name of God.

Surely it'd be better to have a ticking penalty against ALL people of a realm for aggressive expansion? If I'm pressing tons of claims, they wouldn't see it as wrong, but they'd be annoyed at me. They would not want to go to war against what they see as legitimate causes, but they'd still have a negative opinion of me for being so aggressive. Other religions would get more angry, for instance. Maybe even have some kind of oversized penalty against diplomatic actions against anyone in that realm (marrying or whatever) or a total block ('----- is too aggressive').

The fact the patch came out clearly imbalanced to the point of being broken hasn't helped peoples' opinions of coalitions.
 
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