Claiming the Shogun title

[Kensai7]

What happens? I didn't notice any hate penalty or anything. Claimed the title and continued fighting with my nemesis as previously. I was expecting to see the following, probably combined:

1. The other clans don't respond to offer peace any more.
2. Get a -20 penalty in relations with everyone, including your own vassals and courtiers (-20 Dares to become the Shogun) to simulate the hubris behind the claim.
3. Get a +1 honor per month (+1 Shogun Candidate) to show the respect raised of such a daring claim.

Or something similar. If not, what's the point?!

 

[chatnoir17]

Get a -20 penalty in relations with everyone, including your own vassals and courtiers (-20 Dares to become the Shogun) to simulate the hubris behind the claim.

Why should loyal retainers hate you?

Otherwise I agree with your idea.

 

[Kensai7]

Because you are about to become a dictator for life, effectively barring their own lineage from command of Japan. It will be a form of envy. Technically it will be the same, I only called it with a special name to underscore the special event of declaring a claim to the Shogunate. If retainers are really loyal (80+ relation) they will still continue to love you, even after this penalty. Those on the brink of jumping ship, they will find an opportunity to rebel.

PS. chatnoir17, just installed your mod, pretty good there. Kudos. I hope you implement some of the above changes on v0.7 too.

 

[chatnoir17]

Because you are about to become a dictator for life, effectively barring their own lineage from command of Japan. It will be a form of envy. Technically it will be the same, I only called it with a special name to underscore the special event of declaring a claim to the Shogunate. If retainers are really loyal (80+ relation) they will still continue to love you, even after this penalty. Those on the brink of jumping ship, they will find an opportunity to rebel.

PS. chatnoir17, just installed your mod, pretty good there. Kudos. I hope you implement some of the above changes on v0.7 too.

For me, it is not logical if the vassals having worked long time for their lord (historically, the Hosokawa, Imagawa or Shiba for the Ashikaga Shogunate, or Honda, Ii or Sakakibara for the Tokugawa) get suddenly envy when the load owns 50% of Japan. The retainers will be guaranteed high ranks in the Shogunate, so why do they need to revolt?
On the other hand, there were some serious conflicts within the clan, so it would be nice if the game could represent such a thing with events.

And thanks for playing my mod! I am working for the building system now and I will show you a beta version before CK2, the "strongest rival" of Sengoku, appear.

 

[Kensai7]

I have noticed that if you fail your claim for the Shogunate (falling under 50%) and the Emperor recalls his proposal, it gives a -15 in relations with every vassal (Failed to become Shogun).

For me, it is not logical if the vassals having worked long time for their lord (historically, the Hosokawa, Imagawa or Shiba for the Ashikaga Shogunate, or Honda, Ii or Sakakibara for the Tokugawa) get suddenly envy when the load owns 50% of Japan.

They might get envy cause that would mean that the hope for becoming Shoguns themselves (a secret dream of all in this era) vanishes for good. Another clan will put the lineage for decades, if not centuries, as it happened in real life with the Tokugawa. I don't believe it will necessary hurt the game since the most steadfast of vassals will hardly be touched by the penalty. Only those that feel so and so might change benches, and this will add to the difficulty of your claim.

Do you think it is logical to lose relations once you fail the claim as by default happens in the vanilla? I would think honor might be more appropriate. And since honor drives relations as well, it could be even better.

And thanks for playing my mod! I am working for the building system now and I will show you a beta version before CK2, the "strongest rival" of Sengoku, appear.

Very good work indeed. The Gempei war seems quite interesting and I love the events!

 

[timetogetaway]

I have noticed that if you fail your claim for the Shogunate (falling under 50%) and the Emperor recalls his proposal, it gives a -15 in relations with every vassal (Failed to become Shogun).


They might get envy cause that would mean that the hope for becoming Shoguns themselves (a secret dream of all in this era) vanishes for good. Another clan will put the lineage for decades, if not centuries, as it happened in real life with the Tokugawa. I don't believe it will necessary hurt the game since the most steadfast of vassals will hardly be touched by the penalty. Only those that feel so and so might change benches, and this will add to the difficulty of your claim.

...That's just silly. If anything I would tie a loyalty penalty to ambitious lords/envious lords, not a blanket "MY LORD WHO HAS BEEN GOOD TO ME IS IN A BETTER POSITION TO HELP ME. I AM ANGRY AT HIM" penalty.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that ambitious vassals are ambitious already!

 

[Kensai7]

But it throws them out of the Shogunate game for sure. Almost all Kokujins of the era were interested in that role, and this could happen to anyone as Hideyoshi's rapid ascent showed. All you had to do was the right choices. I believe the direct Vassals and Daimyos of a Shogun candidate should be mostly affected, as they are the most powerful to succeed him in case something happens (an "accident"... assassination, illness, death in battle, etc).

I think it is justified, and it will give the claim a higher level of challenge in the closing parts of the game, where you should be most watchful of backstabbing!

 

[Einigkeit]

Maybe there could be a small penalty for ambitious vassals (-5 or -10?), but otherwise I'm going to agree with chatnoir on this one. The loyal vassals will be in a good position if their lord gains the title of Shogun. True, they may not be the top man in the country, but there are a lot of perks for being the direct retainer of the top man. Why spoil that?

Otherwise, I agree with your points.

 

[Kensai7]

Giving a penalty only to the ambitious, schemers, etc seems like a good compromise to me. The rest of it, though, could indeed be implemented. I hope it is also taken into consideration by modders.

 

[chatnoir17]

Giving a penalty only to the ambitious, schemers, etc seems like a good compromise to me. The rest of it, though, could indeed be implemented. I hope it is also taken into consideration by modders.

I will take it!