Claimable duchy & kingdom setups for CK 1.05

[tommassi]

What if Mauritania was given to Granada (and possibly Africa extended westwards)?

I don't like that either... Granada as a kingdom was one of the many Taifas, with little to nothing relation to northern Africa, IIRC. You could possibly find a historical connection to northern Africa in that they asked the Almohades (whatever their name is in english) for help. But I'm still not comfortable making Granada a kingdom with territories in Africa.

EDIT:

In this map you can find the borders of the Kingdom of Granada. They were quite stable through more than 200 years. And the were vassals to King of Castilla (that's why the survived for so long, Castilla had no hurry in spending money to conquer a kingdom which was already paying good money just to stay alive)

 

[Duuk]

You have to define that weirdness for me to be convinced. Reasons, explanations etc. You keep saying that it will lead to "weirdness" and be "bad for gameplay", but you never actually describe how. Please do so or they'll stay in Scythia.

The difference being, that if Wales is part of England, it instantly pledges to England and same with Brittany/France. Latter being precisely why Brittany is not part of France. This is a non-issue with Granada, as Muslims don't pledge to Catholics.

You contradict yourself here, Byak. You have a habit of that it seems.

Wallachia and Moldau don't have weirdness while they are tribes, but 50 years in, when the Pechengs are gone, Scythia is a smaller "King" title than Cumans* (the title currently in this area in-game). This will mean likely someone will have it.

Which means that Wallachia and Maldau will happily pledge allegience to Scythia, which makes 0 sense.

Wallachia and Maldau didn't pledge to ANYONE in the CK (or EU3... or Vicky... and almost to HOI2) timeframe. So your argument that including them in a "fantasy" kingdom makes it all ok has the ring of logic that isn't logical.

If Dacia was created, these 2 Duchies would only pledge allegience to "each other" so to speak, and that would be fine. But do NOT include them in any "outside" Kingdom, because it makes no sense at all. If you do, you may as well include Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and England all as a "King of the Britons" title. That has the same historical value as King of Scythia and has the same results of areas that didn't pledge historically bending the knee.

Wallachia and Maldau should be treated by Brittany, if they aren't, then you're creating this setup for no reason except vanity.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

I don't like that either... Granada as a kingdom was one of the many Taifas, with little to nothing relation to northern Africa, IIRC. You could possibly find a historical connection to northern Africa in that they asked the Almohades (whatever their name is in english) for help. But I'm still not comfortable making Granada a kingdom with territories in Africa.

Maghreb or Cordoba then?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Well, newest edition:

 

[Duuk]

In this map you can find the borders of the Kingdom of Granada. They were quite stable through more than 200 years. And the were vassals to King of Castilla (that's why the survived for so long, Castilla had no hurry in spending money to conquer a kingdom which was already paying good money just to stay alive)

Actually, what that map says to me is we could combine "Cordoba" and "Granada" into 1 Kingdom and solve the whole mess.

Though for historical reasons I'd rather use the name "Granada" than "Cordoba", even though Cordoba is the larger entity.

Also because I'd enjoy the heck out of playing that

 

[Duuk]

That map looks great Byak!

I have a question though, and it's more "me" than "anything else". I'm fairly color blind and I can't tell the borders in Iberia very well. Any chance you could either alter the color map there or put little dots in Portugal and Aragon's provinces? I can't be the only one straining at that.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I have a question though, and it's more "me" than "anything else". I'm fairly color blind and I can't tell the borders in Iberia very well. Any chance you could either alter the color map there or put little dots in Portugal and Aragon's provinces? I can't be the only one straining at that.

Err, Portugal and Aragon are green, Castile is yellow. But I suppose I can.

EDIT: Better?

 

[tommassi]

Actually, what that map says to me is we could combine "Cordoba" and "Granada" into 1 Kingdom and solve the whole mess.

Though for historical reasons I'd rather use the name "Granada" than "Cordoba", even though Cordoba is the larger entity.

Also because I'd enjoy the heck out of playing that

There's no Cordoba in that map, Duuk. That's the lands that Almohades controlled, and cover all of de Taifa little kingdoms that appeared after the collapse of, precisely, Cordoba. So, IMO, there's no way you can make Cordoba and Granada the same thing.

Plus: Cordoba was an arab Caliphate, and Granada a bereber kingdom

So, Phoenix, also no Cordoba as a name for that kingdom, IMO. Maybe Mahgreb could be OK, but it still seems pretty strange to take Granada out of Castilla, since basically Granada was a vassal of Castilla for almost two centuries.

 

[Duuk]

What about making the dotted provinces "Granada"?

This gives an Iberia breakdown of:

Aragon: 15

Leon: 10

Castille: 11

Portugal: 10

Granada: 12

I'd also be game for removing Navarre from Aragon to NONE, making Aragon still the largest but at 14. If we remove Majorca/Menorca, that's 12, and Iberia is "balanced".

The gameplay advantages to this include: Easier to recreate fallen Iberian kingdoms (such as Castille) and greater rewards to non-Iberians for involving themselves in the Reconquista. I know I'm not the only one that won't get involved in Iberia until at least one of the King titles has been destroyed so I can set up my bastard son as King of Something.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Duuk, far too big for historical Granada and five kingdoms is too many in Iberia.

 

[unmerged(24328)]

Poland:
- Lesser Poland (blue): Krakowskie, Cieszyn, Sacz, Sandomierskie
- Masovia (red): Podlasie, Yatvyagi, Czersk, Plock
- Kuyavia (green): Kujawy, Sieradzko-Leczyckie
- Silesia (yellow): Lower Silesia, Upper Silesia
- Greater Poland (cyan): Opole, Poznanskie, Lubusz, Kaliskie, Gnieznienskie
- Pomeralia (blue): Slupsk, Danzig, Chelminskie
- Prussia (white): Marienburg, Sambia, Scalovia, Galindia

Greater Poland is ok, but Lesser Poland (Malopolska) is only geographic name like Carpathians(Karpaty), it wasn't duchy title...

There were no dukes of Lesser Poland (Malopolska), but Dukes of Greater Poland existed

Lesser Poland (Malopolska, Polonia Minor) name is using since XIV-XV century... before was Cracovia (Kraków)...

so Greater Poland is ok, but Lesser Poland should be changed to Cracovia

 

[Duuk]

Duuk, far too big for historical Granada and five kingdoms is too many in Iberia.

There are 5 there now.

And adding Granada doesn't do anything but balance out teh numbers so that Castille isn't a beast and Leon doesn't have ahistorical claims to lands it never owned.

In the 5 Kingdom setup (vanilla) the options are "extend Leon south", which makes no sense, and "have Castille be frickin' huge", which also makes no sense.

Spain didn't finish subjugating these lands until 1492 (and arguably under Torquemada), so the "Kingdom of Granada" doesn't impact the "historical" feel for CK, it only balances things better.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Greater Poland is ok, but Lesser Poland (Malopolska) is only geographic name like Carpathians(Karpaty), it wasn't duchy title...

There were no dukes of Lesser Poland (Malopolska), but Dukes of Greater Poland existed

Lesser Poland (Malopolska, Polonia Minor) name is using since XIV-XV century... before was Cracovia (Kraków)...

so Greater Poland is ok, but Lesser Poland should be changed to Cracovia

I faintly remeber objections to using Krakow, though I might recall wrong. And Lesser Poland sounds so nice pair to Greater Poland. Lesser Poland is more or less the royal territory. Was there dukes of Cracovia / Krakow either?

 

[Third Angel]

Duuk, far too big for historical Granada and five kingdoms is too many in Iberia.

And if there was to be a fifth, it should be Navarra as proposed by tommassi. This southern kingdom, Andalusia, Granada or Cordoba was already advocated by Jinnai in the SM thread, and rejected by most posters. If muslims were able to create titles, I'd be fine with it but a christian ruelr would not have styled himself king of Cordoba or Andalusia.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

There are 5 there now.

Just four recreatable ones. Which is the one that counts in this thread.

And adding Granada doesn't do anything but balance out teh numbers so that Castille isn't a beast and Leon doesn't have ahistorical claims to lands it never owned.

In the 5 Kingdom setup (vanilla) the options are "extend Leon south", which makes no sense, and "have Castille be frickin' huge", which also makes no sense.

Spain didn't finish subjugating these lands until 1492 (and arguably under Torquemada), so the "Kingdom of Granada" doesn't impact the "historical" feel for CK, it only balances things better.

Castile conquered all but the four provinces listed out by Third Angel earlier by 1270 permanently and like Tommassi points out, Granada only survived by semi-vassallage to Castile.

 

[Third Angel]

And adding Granada doesn't do anything but balance out teh numbers so that Castille isn't a beast and Leon doesn't have ahistorical claims to lands it never owned.

In the 5 Kingdom setup (vanilla) the options are "extend Leon south", which makes no sense, and "have Castille be frickin' huge", which also makes no sense.

Spain didn't finish subjugating these lands until 1492 (and arguably under Torquemada), so the "Kingdom of Granada" doesn't impact the "historical" feel for CK, it only balances things better.

That's why I would have the four provinces of Granada as NONE.

 

[Kujy]

Greater Poland is ok, but Lesser Poland (Malopolska) is only geographic name like Carpathians(Karpaty), it wasn't duchy title...

There were no dukes of Lesser Poland (Malopolska), but Dukes of Greater Poland existed

Lesser Poland (Malopolska, Polonia Minor) name is using since XIV-XV century... before was Cracovia (Kraków)...

so Greater Poland is ok, but Lesser Poland should be changed to Cracovia

Well if we got rid of Lesser Poland then we would end up with two 2-prov duchies probably (Krakowskie and Sandomiersk). I posted a while ago a (kinda shaky) case for the duchy of LP, but IMO it makes sense to have it since more often than not the lands of Malopolska historically were under the rule of one Polish duke. I'll try to find the post when I get back from running some errands.

 

[tommassi]

Just four recreatable ones. Which is the one that counts in this thread.

No hope for Navarra then? Even with the six provinces I suggested some posts ago?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

No hope for Navarra then? Even with the six provinces I suggested some posts ago?

No. It is bad for gameplay to concentrate too many small kingdoms into one place.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Since Wales is a semi-fantasy kingdom in this timeframe (AFAIK), couldn't Man be included there? 4 provinces to create the kingdom (66% of 6) seems a bit little-ish...