Claimable duchy & kingdom setups for CK 1.05

[Herr Doctor]

Not exactly that I meant. Kingdom of Russia represents Moscow Principality, Kiev-Rus represents Kiev Principality. It would make different and more accurate map.

Well, as soon as the Czardom of Russia was created after the historical fall of Constantinople (1453) when the game ends, it does not have much sense to be in game. At last it is better to use this tag for historical “Kingdom” of Ruthenia (or Kiev).

 

[Herr Doctor]

Well, then other simple rule. Grab that is easy to grab and at the grasp of your hand, and Lithuanians would grab that without big problem and much less rebellion then with TO

As I said it's not the fact. Prussia was a powerful coalition of the tribes, and on a level more developed than Lithuanian. Without TO’s invasion they could become a real influential state. Livonia and Estonia are the other issue indeed.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

As I said it's not the fact. Prussia was a powerful coalition of the tribes, and on a level more developed than Lithuanian. Without TO’s invasion they could become a real influential state. Livonia and Estonia are the other issue indeed.

Powerfull enough to survive Poland and Lithuanian invasion after 1360?

 

[Herr Doctor]

Powerfull enough to survive Poland and Lithuanian invasion after 1360?

Well we are going now to a complete hypothetical alternative history, so there is much chance Lithuania would be eaten by Prussia (and Galicia-Volhyn) already in early 14th century. Polish invasion is much possible.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

Well, as soon as the Czardom of Russia was created after the historical fall of Constantinople (1453) when the game ends, it does not have much sense to be in game. At last it is better to use this tag for historical “Kingdom” of Ruthenia (or Kiev).

I think we should have two tags, we could take one from Finland, which has even less sense. I think it could be two powers fighting for Russian Empire and if Kingdom of Russia conquer Ruthenia then it will be Moscow Russia, if Ruthenia does it then Kiev Russia. Two different capitals. Besides, I am talking also from Lithuanian prospective it is too much for Lithuania to Conquer all Russia just to keep Ukraine stable as it was up to Polish occupation. Kingdom of Ruthenia title would allow this and simulate history more accurately.

 

[Herr Doctor]

I think we should have two tags, we could take one from Finland, which has even less sense. I think it could be two powers fighting for Russian Empire and if Kingdom of Russia conquer Ruthenia then it will be Moscow Russia, if Ruthenia does it then Kiev Russia. Two different capitals. Besides, I am talking also from Lithuanian prospective it is too much for Lithuania to Conquer all Russia just to keep Ukraine stable as it was up to Polish occupation. Kingdom of Ruthenia title would allow this and simulate history more accurately.

Ah, I got your point. Still the situation you are speaking about did not appear historically earlier than the end of the 15th century, which is not part of the CK timeframe. That’s why IMO it is better just simply to add this Kievian “kingdom” (without Polotsk and Galicia as vassals for obvious reasons).

 

[unmerged(47028)]

Well we are going now to a complete hypothetical alternative history, so there is much chance Lithuania would be eaten by Prussia (and Galicia-Volhyn) already in early 14th century. Polish invasion is much possible.

Well it also supports my idea that Prussia and Lithuania would be one regardless who eat what. As we have Lithuanian tag it is easier to use it.

Now I have another idea. We could have Prussian-Livonian Kingdom Tag (fantasy but it is gammy) Teutonic order should keep these two Tags, as TO and PL, this would make easier for TO to control lands in the third scenario and also for the third powers to grab and control those lands without fear of rebellion (especially Lithuania) if they create PL title.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

Ah, I got your point. Still the situation you are speaking about did not appear historically earlier than the end of the 15th century, which is not part of the CK timeframe. That’s why IMO it is better just simply to add this Kievian “kingdom” (without Polotsk and Galicia as vassals for obvious reasons).

But they will rebel and never join Lithuania for AI, and for PC Lithuania they will be just pain in the... even they never were, without possibility to grab their kingdom title. The only way for PC to keep then is hold on Duchy titles, but even then counties would rebel constantly.

As we have many other kingdoms in CK which are not part of the CK timeframe, this wouldn't be that bad especialy when CK simulates possibilities of alternative history.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

If we refuse to create Kiev Rus on the basis of historical accuracy then we should add it to Lithuanian creatable title.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Well it also supports my idea that Prussia and Lithuania would be one regardless who eat what. As we have Lithuanian tag it is easier to use it.

Now I have another idea. We could have Prussian-Livonian Kingdom Tag (fantasy but it is gammy) Teutonic order should keep these two Tags, as TO and PL, this would make easier for TO to control lands in the third scenario and also for the third powers to grab and control those lands without fear of rebellion (especially Lithuania) if they create PL title.

As I said I would not mind Prussia to be a creatable kingdom (even combined with Livonia). At last it will also allow not to add Liovnia and Estonia to this Finnish kingdom.

 

[Herr Doctor]

But they will rebel and never join Lithuania for AI, and for PC Lithuania they will be just pain in the... even they never were, without possibility to grab their kingdom title. The only way for PC to keep then is hold on Duchy titles, but even then counties would rebel constantly.

As we have many other kingdoms in CK which are not part of the CK timeframe, this wouldn't be that bad especialy when CK simulates possibilities of alternative history.

Polotsk could stay as part of the “Lithuanian kingdom” sphere. Galicia is a complex issue as something should be done to create a struggle for this between Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, possibly Kiev (if survives).

 

[Herr Doctor]

If we refuse to create Kiev Rus on the basis of historical accuracy then we should add it to Lithuanian creatable title.

As I said better simply to get rid of “Russia”. There was no Muscovy (and Moscow) at all until the 14th century.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

As I said better simply to get rid of “Russia”. There was no Muscovy (and Moscow) at all until the 14th century.

When we should get rid of, many other Kingdoms as Ireland, for example. However IMHO CO is game which simulates alternative history or hypothetical history and it is possible that Russia could be created before XIV century, they just had no good rulers as PCs are. This is why want to include more gammy things even if they are hypothetical but possible. As with Lithuanian claim on Prussia and Livonia as TO is not existent in the first two scenarios.

I would also create Kiev Rus kingdom and give claims on Peayrislavl and Chernigov titles to Gediminas, as with Seljuks in the first scenario (Asia Minor tiltes.). I would create an event which somewhere between 1350 and 1400 would change Lithuanian king’s religion to 40% Catholic or 60% Orthodox if it was not changed before that. This would give much more dynamics and historical accuracy in the area then it is now.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

Polotsk could stay as part of the “Lithuanian kingdom” sphere. Galicia is a complex issue as something should be done to create a struggle for this between Poland, Lithuania, Hungary, possibly Kiev (if survives).

Agree It could be devided between Poland and Kiev Rus, and as you know duke joins those where his capital is, but it could change over the time. I would give claims to Hungary king as well.

 

[Herr Doctor]

When we should get rid of, many other Kingdoms as Ireland, for example.

There were High Kings of Ireland at last during CK timeframe in the contrast to the Russian “imperial” (czar) title.

I would also create Kiev Rus kingdom and give claims on Peayrislavl and Chernigov titles to Gediminas, as with Seljuks in the first scenario (Asia Minor tiltes.). I would create an event which somewhere between 1350 and 1400 would change Lithuanian king’s religion to 40% Catholic or 60% Orthodox if it was not changed before that. This would give much more dynamics and historical accuracy in the area then it is now.

Good ideas.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

I would also sign truce between Gediminas and TO with Poland, also between Algirdas and TO with Poland before scenarios starts. This would give some time before total Lithuanian devastation as it happens now. And if King of Lithuania would change his religion before truce expires when we would have nice history in CK

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Some people argue that there was a 'king of Rus' in 1066

See this thread

 

[Herr Doctor]

Some people argue that there was a 'king of Rus' in 1066

See this thread

This is only a matter of the name (title) as I see. But de facto Kiev (Rus’) is much a developed kingdom model with sovereign and vassals, which is not represented in CK now.

Of course one could make those vassals very rebellious etc, but the fact that the some kind of such unity should exist here, and it is well represented by the “kingdom” model in the game.

Calgacus mentioned most of the arguments I wished to make, so I just do not want to repeat to them. We can just simply rename Kingdom of Russia to Kingdom of Ruthenia (or Kiev), change a shield to historical trident (like in modern Ukraine). Polotsk will stay as “Lithuanian kingdom” sphere and not part of this Rus’ creation as historically it was subject to Kiev only for a short time (from 980s to 1060s).

This is really an addition which would improve the situation in Eastern Europe much, especially stooping this crazy Pecheneg and Baltic rule here early in game.

 

[Herr Doctor]

So, what we can potentially do to improve Eastern Europe much (which looks the most messy region in all my games as of now – I even prefer to play West and North European dynasties instead of being involved in this Pagan disorder here):

• Add Ruthenia “kingdom” for all “Rurikids” lands with free Polotsk (part of Lithuanian kingdom sphere), and Galicia (part of Ruthenia at start) as part of Hungarian, Polish and Kievian kingdoms spheres.
• Add creatable Prussian kingdom (with Livonia and Estonia as part of its sphere).
• Fix Lithuanian kingdom borders

This would be an ideal situation, granting wonderful interesting opportunities for the player and AI, making the game much more historical and realistic.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

And my idea is to make two Russian kingdoms. First: Russia or Musowian Russia (East and North Russia) to represent future development and Second Kievan Rus or Ruthenia (West Russia), which would represent the past and beginning in the first scenario, and of course it would allow Lithuania to claim Ruthenia King title and hold lands without rebellion (historically).

I know two kingdoms does not look very historical, but we could consider holding of two Russian kingdoms titles would mean starting of Russian Empire and it also would mean two possible capitals for Russian Empire.