Claimable duchy & kingdom setups for CK 1.05

[Herr Doctor]

Well, because this would make less reasonable, especially because even Kiev is not Lithuania. Besides if Lithuania refused then should we add now?

In fact Kiev was much a legitimate part of the Lithuanian Grand Ducal dominion (historically), while Prussia was not. This is quite obvious.

Because it was tested by history.

Right. Same with Prussia, Courland and Livonia.

Now, this is the main reason why Prussia and Latvia should belong to Lithuanian Kingdom.

If we talk about history, then Teutonic order made huge impact in the region. However, in CK, Teutonic Order makes no impact whatsoever, except in the last scenario. Therefore the region is left for total fiction.

Now the have question if region is fiction then: would Latvia and Prussia stay independent without Teutonic order involvement? I would say, example of Pomerania says no.

Second question if Pagan Baltic region is not going to stay independent what would the most probably they join? We would have couple of powers: Catholic Poland (Slavs), Pagan Lithuania (Balts), Catholic Denmark (Germans) and Orthodox Novgorod (Slavs). Which kingdom you would vote?

However I would completely agree with you if Teutonic Order was great power in the game, which is not.

As I said taking in account special situation with these Baltic territories (same as the example I made with Brittany and Sardinia), they should stay as independent duchies without connected with any kingdoms.

If Mindaugas with much and much smaller duchy and much less power was able to get King title from a pope then Algirdas had much more possibilities to get it as well. I would say, there were couple of reasons. First the main ally was Catholic Country, second the largest territory was Orthodox, third he still remember what happened to the Mindaugas, as nobility was pagan. Therefore, it was not luck of ambitions, but clever reasoning and waiting for right political conjuncture.

Simply none in Europe would accept him (or nay other Grand Duke, except Vytautas perhaps) as the “king”.

I was not talking about Livonia, I was talking about Prussia, where Teutonic knights were detroyed, but Lithuanian-Polish forces waited too long before they could expand victory benefits.

Yes, but the probably was the complete incompetence of the Polish and Lithuanian armies in taking Teutonic fortresses, so they did not have any chance to take anything in this war.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Still as I said it is up to mods to decided naturally, but as it was mentioned just think about the hypothetical situation when it will be possible to create Lithuanian kingdom in game controlling only all those numerous Prussian, Curonian and Semigalian provinces without even care about taking Lithuania Propria…

 

[unmerged(47028)]

BTW. Prussia was called Lithuania Minor and Samogitia - Lowland (Zemaitija)

As I said taking in account special situation with these Baltic territories (same as the example I made with Brittany and Sardinia), they should stay as independent duchies without connected with any kingdoms.

Brittany was on the side of France and there was no any other power which had any claims on it and they were not a threat, therefore France had no any immediate plans for them.

Sardinia even worse it is an island and Italy did not even existed till XIX century.

On the other hand. In the absence of Teutonic Order (CK) the territories were much less secure. Poland, Russian principalities Denmark and of course Lithuania had interest in those lands. Poland because of the threat and access to the Baltic Sea, Russian for the same reasons, Danish for trading, Lithuanians for access to the Baltic Sea, but also for the danger of them falling to Christian hands, therefore denying access to the Baltic Sea and danger of invasions. For these reasons Lithuania had much bigger incentive for invasion and annexation then France to Brittany and Baltic territories had much higher incentive to stay with Lithuania then Brittany with France (different language, no other immediate enemies).

This in game terms means no Rebellious traits for Lithuania controlling those territories and this only possible with inclusion in Lithuanian Kingdom.

Simply none in Europe would accept him (or nay other Grand Duke, except Vytautas perhaps) as the “king”.

Well, neighbours would, as they even accepted Jogaila, pagan duke as their king. The main thing is to be accepted by a Pope and then you like it or not he would be in the same club. The same happened to Sweden, Norway and many other kingdoms which were smaller and less powerfull then Lithuania from Gediminas.

Yes, but the probably was the complete incompetence of the Polish and Lithuanian armies in taking Teutonic fortresses, so they did not have any chance to take anything in this war.

Yes they were incompetent, but also very slow to start take fortresses, However many of them fell anyway.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

Still as I said it is up to mods to decided naturally, but as it was mentioned just think about the hypothetical situation when it will be possible to create Lithuanian kingdom in game controlling only all those numerous Prussian, Curonian and Semigalian provinces without even care about taking Lithuania Propria…

Well if we would include historical Lithuanian lands in CK terms, such as Kiev and Pereyaslavl and then Prussians and Latvians won't make any difference

 

[Herr Doctor]

BTW. Prussia was called Lithuania Minor and Samogitia - Lowland (Zemaitija)

Not exactly all Prussia, but the part (north western) strongly (linguistically and culturally) influence by Samogitia. The name did no come earlier than the 15th-16th centuries.

Brittany was on the side of France and there was no any other power which had any claims on it and they were not a threat, therefore France had no any immediate plans for them.

Brittany was a vassal of the French crown since the 14th century.

Sardinia even worse it is an island and Italy did not even existed till XIX century.

Italy was a kingdom (but a part of the “Imperial”, German one).

On the other hand. In the absence of Teutonic Order (CK) the territories were much less secure. Poland, Russian principalities Denmark and of course Lithuania had interest in those lands. Poland because of the threat and access to the Baltic Sea, Russian for the same reasons, Danish for trading, Lithuanians for access to the Baltic Sea, but also for the danger of them falling to Christian hands, therefore denying access to the Baltic Sea and danger of invasions. For these reasons Lithuania had much bigger incentive for invasion and annexation then France to Brittany and Baltic territories had much higher incentive to stay with Lithuania then Brittany with France (different language, no other immediate enemies).

This in game terms means no Rebellious traits for Lithuania controlling those territories and this only possible with inclusion in Lithuanian Kingdom.

Well Danish interests were far from trading. You have a Valdemar’s crusade to Estonia as an example. Historically Lithuanian main expansion directions were south and east and it had nothing to do with the Baltic coast itself. Lets imagine the situation when already taken by some Christian state Prussia would declare independence and then when Lithuania created would pledge elegance to it…

Well, neighbours would, as they even accepted Jogaila, pagan duke as their king. The main thing is to be accepted by a Pope and then you like it or not he would be in the same club. The same happened to Sweden, Norway and many other kingdoms which were smaller and less powerfull then Lithuania from Gediminas.

Indeed, Jogaila became a king, but of Poland. Lithuania was not a kingdom even in his project (except Vytautas’ Crown as a present from Emperor Sigismund; which was done against the real papal will, btw). Lithuania in 15th century indeed was big in territory size: with a population of 1 person per 10 km2 in Wild Fields for example (so-called Lithuanian “access” to the Black Sea)…

 

[Herr Doctor]

Well if we would include historical Lithuanian lands in CK terms, such as Kiev and Pereyaslavl and then Prussians and Latvians won't make any difference

We can leave it with just Lithuania Propria (Trakai-Vilnius), Samogitia, Minsk, Navagrudak, Polotsk, Volyn and Minsk (same size as Portugal, Burgundy, Ireland, Denmark or Norway). There is just no need to make it super-size.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

We can leave it with just Lithuania Propria (Trakai-Vilnius), Samogitia, Minsk, Navagrudak, Polotsk, Volyn and Minsk (same size as Portugal, Burgundy, Ireland, Denmark or Norway). There is just no need to make it super-size.

The main difference between those kingdoms and Lithuania is, is that the majority of the counties that make up Lithuania are held by pagans. So you don't need a claim to take them. Making the conquest very easy.

The only other kingdom in your list, which comes close is Portugal. But Portugal is held by Muslims, so a bit harder to conquer and Portugal can't be made bigger.

The current size of Lithuania is good, maybe not fully historical. But at least you have to conquer a considerable number of counties to become king.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

We can leave it with just Lithuania Propria (Trakai-Vilnius), Samogitia, Minsk, Navagrudak, Polotsk, Volyn and Minsk (same size as Portugal, Burgundy, Ireland, Denmark or Norway). There is just no need to make it super-size.

Well, by the end of CK history, Lithuania was the biggest country in Europe, so we should super-size it , bigger then Portugal, Burgundy, Ireland, and Denmark added together. However, CK did not simulate this historical fact.

And I will repeat myself, Lithuania had no immediate plans for Baltic sea, which is also not really true as Memel (CK) (except Memel city) in fact 80% of territory belonged to Lithuania and it had access to Baltic Sea . Livonia and Prussia never shared border, this is why they always invaded Memel (province) and Zhmud, as they wanted establish land access between each other. However Lithuania had no plans because those lands belonged to Teutonic order which was very strong and had Western European support, in any other way they would invade it, and this is exactly what happens in CK, as TO in first two scenarios doesn’t exist and will never exist. And in the third scenario Lithuania disappears in first 20 years and TO doesn’t need Kingdom title for those lands as it is an Order.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

Not exactly all Prussia, but the part (north western) strongly (linguistically and culturally) influence by Samogitia. The name did no come earlier than the 15th-16th centuries.

I would correct - Eastern part. Which I want to include in Lithuanian Kingdom

Brittany was a vassal of the French crown since the 14th century.

Well, then I do not see the reason why it shouldn't belong to France

Italy was a kingdom (but a part of the “Imperial”, German one).

In theory but in practice HRE had to prove and prove its claims on Italy. In CK terms, it means: no Italy Kingdom title, just start with Italian duchies and Republics as vassals.

Well Danish interests were far from trading.

It just supports my reasoning even more, why Lithuania would take Baltic Coast before anybody else would.

Indeed, Jogaila became a king, but of Poland. Lithuania was not a kingdom even in his project (except Vytautas’ Crown as a present from Emperor Sigismund; which was done against the real papal will, btw).

No, I am talking that Lithuanian Dukes were already in the same league as Western Kings, as Poland wouldn't take any pagan duke and make its king. Duke Gediminas was already recognised by Western powers, he just needed to make decision and make Lithuania Kingdom. However due political situation inside the country, not outside it was not very practical at that moment.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Well, by the end of CK history, Lithuania was the biggest country in Europe, so we should super-size it , bigger then Portugal, Burgundy, Ireland, and Denmark added together. However, CK did not simulate this historical fact.

But twice as weaker as any of them in particular as history proved. The badly populated poor territories seemed hard to govern, especially bordering such great powers as Muscovy (since the 15th century) and the Ottoman vassals in Crimea. But as it was said its size has nothing to do with the Baltic coast.

And I will repeat myself, Lithuania had no immediate plans for Baltic sea, which is also not really true as Memel (CK) (except Memel city) in fact 80% of territory belonged to Lithuania and it had access to Baltic Sea.

The EUII map (which CK inherited just divided old provinces on smaller ones) is ugly and as I said “Memel” (in 1060! – sic!) should stay as part of Samogitia and Lithuanian kingdom. As to this “access” – it is like with Baltic Sea. Palanga was a drastically small (several houses) fisherman village and was not (and is not) navigatable as port. I could not name it “access” really.

Livonia and Prussia never shared border, this is why they always invaded Memel (province) and Zhmud, as they wanted establish land access between each other. However Lithuania had no plans because those lands belonged to Teutonic order which was very strong and had Western European support, in any other way they would invade it, and this is exactly what happens in CK, as TO in first two scenarios doesn’t exist and will never exist. And in the third scenario Lithuania disappears in first 20 years and TO doesn’t need Kingdom title for those lands as it is an Order.

You are wrong here as for more than about 50 years TO and Livonian Order were united through the Samogitian connection, which Lithuania lost and never really cared much to return (until Grunwald). Lithuania just did not has any Baltic ambitions during the CK era and history proved it many times (why it does not joined Poland in wars against the weaked Order in 1440-1460s? Muscovy and Crimea were still far from being a threat until 1470s).

 

[Herr Doctor]

I would correct - Eastern part. Which I want to include in Lithuanian Kingdom

Yea, I was speaking about the Samogitian projection.

However the situation is kind of absurd with our discussion and Lithuania Minor: the term and the Lithuanian (better say Samogitian as there was still no strong unity between the two ones as in modern times) cultural and linguistic influence came here only after the Prussian traditions were destroyed and graded with the German influence (which were 15th-16th centuries). Prussia was far superior in cultural sense than any of the Baltic lands (especially the swamps and forests of Lithuanian and Yatvyagians tribes), its economical and sacral center. It was no chance that it would be influenced in similar way if not the TO, so your claims to make it Lithuanian sphere basing on these facts had no sense without Order’s invasion of Prussia… Kind of paradox.

On the background of our discussion I even thought about creating the Prussian kingdom than Lithuanian one. As soon as we cannot recreate historical situation with historical Lithuanian "kingdom" (with its interesting model of Pagan monarchs, Ruthenian model of the Royal court and organization of feudal society, and mixed Pagan-Orthodox-Catholic elites) then why not to create Baltic (Prussian) Kingdom here without spreading it to “Kievian” (“Ruthenian”) sphere. If there is not TO invasion, so much chance Prussia wound become the leading force in the region.

Well, then I do not see the reason why it shouldn't belong to France

Because it was not part of the French crown but only it vassal… Same as Prussia or Courland were not (and even not vassals in CK period).

In theory but in practice HRE had to prove and prove its claims on Italy. In CK terms, it means: no Italy Kingdom title, just start with Italian duchies and Republics as vassals.

It does not need to prove anything as everyone in Europe (except Venice and the Pope may be) recognized Emperor as the sovereign of Italy.

It just supports my reasoning even more, why Lithuania would take Baltic Coast before anybody else would.

May be this is logical in your mind but neither in real history with TO, nor in hypothetical with free superior Prussia.

No, I am talking that Lithuanian Dukes were already in the same league as Western Kings, as Poland wouldn't take any pagan duke and make its king. Duke Gediminas was already recognised by Western powers, he just needed to make decision and make Lithuania Kingdom. However due political situation inside the country, not outside it was not very practical at that moment.

They were not. They could become Polish monarchs (or anyone else – the Bohemian kings for example) but not Lithuanian. They were recognized as sovereign rulers, as Grand Dukes, but not as the Kings. As I said Kingdom (in medieval times, not in modern era) is the extremely complex state system and Lithuania lacked half of this specifics (especially if t goes about the homogeneous elites which considered themselves part of one Crown – the understanding which appeared in Lithuania not earlier than 15th century). This is the theme for another discussion and it’s better to turn in to the historical forum if you wish. It was naturally about the paganism of the Lithuanian rulers (and they as potential kings), but about Lithuania itself as kingdom. So, as you said “due political situation inside the country, not outside it was not very practical at that moment”. The real state which reminds us of all medieval kingdom features was formed in the middle 15th century (much thanks to what Vytautas did in the later period as well as the first laws codifications of Casimir Jagiellon in 1460s).

 

[unmerged(47028)]

But twice as weaker as any of them in particular as history proved. The badly populated poor territories seemed hard to govern, especially bordering such great powers as Muscovy (since the 15th century) and the Ottoman vassals in Crimea. But as it was said its size has nothing to do with the Baltic coast.

Well, strong enough to survive more then 50 years

You are wrong here as for more than about 50 years TO and Livonian Order were united through the Samogitian connection, which Lithuania lost and never really cared much to return (until Grunwald).

Well, Lithuania controlled Ukraine more then 50 years. Besides it cared but if you are great player you seize opportunity when it is the right time. Lowlanders proved themselves strong enough to withstand an occupation and TO never took real control over Samogitia, therefore Lithuanians waited for the right moment to take it back.

Now some fact supporting my Ziemgalia 1279 willing to acknowledge Lithuania's superiority and ask Lithuanians to invade Livonia as Prussians did 1286. Therefore these lands were willing to join Lithuania, however Lithuania had no military power to beat Orders.

Besides, take a look at this map. It says Livonia vassal of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Therefore, it had plans after all, just not the right time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_map2.jpg

 

[Herr Doctor]

Well, strong enough to survive more then 50 years

I do not say it is a weak state in regional sense. In no way! But in European context it is. Size does not matter in this case. Population and controllability does.

Well, Lithuania controlled Ukraine more then 50 years. Besides it cared but if you are great player you seize opportunity when it is the right time. Lowlanders proved themselves strong enough to withstand an occupation and TO never took real control over Samogitia, therefore Lithuanians waited for the right moment to take it back.

Now some fact supporting my Ziemgalia 1279 willing to acknowledge Lithuania's superiority and ask Lithuanians to invade Livonia as Prussians did 1286. Therefore these lands were willing to join Lithuania, however Lithuania had no military power to beat Orders.

Besides, take a look at this map. It says Livonia vassal of Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Therefore, it had plans after all, just not the right time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_map2.jpg

As I said I doubt that anyone in Courland or Prussia would think about supporting ties with Lithuania if not TO…

And its Polish and Lithuanian crowns vassal as I said (condominium as Courland was until eaten by Russia in 1795).

 

[unmerged(47028)]

On the background of our discussion I even thought about creating the Prussian kingdom than Lithuanian one. As soon as we cannot recreate historical situation with historical Lithuanian "kingdom" (with its interesting model of Pagan monarchs, Ruthenian model of the Royal court and organization of feudal society, and mixed Pagan-Orthodox-Catholic elites) then why not to create Baltic (Prussian) Kingdom here without spreading it to “Kievian” (“Ruthenian”) sphere. If there is not TO invasion, so much chance Prussia wound become the leading force in the region.

Now as you mentioned it.

I would recommend delete Italian kingdom to show historical fact that it was land of independent Republics. On the other had, I suggest create new kingdom of Kievan Rus, or Rhutenia or doesn’t matter how..

It should consist of Kiev, Chernigov, Galich and Pereyaslavl or something like that. I strongly believe that it was just an accident, it was not called Kingdom, but it would make sense. This also would make logical for Lithuania to grab title and hold these land up to the end of CK history without fear of rebeling as they never did, contrary to Polish occupation.

 

[Herr Doctor]

The main difference between those kingdoms and Lithuania is, is that the majority of the counties that make up Lithuania are held by pagans. So you don't need a claim to take them. Making the conquest very easy.

The only other kingdom in your list, which comes close is Portugal. But Portugal is held by Muslims, so a bit harder to conquer and Portugal can't be made bigger.

The current size of Lithuania is good, maybe not fully historical. But at least you have to conquer a considerable number of counties to become king.

Well, ok, just wanted to make a bit clear that such situation is far from seeing potential historical Lithuanian “kingdom” sphere.

And you have an example of even “easier” creatable kingdoms in game: Bohemia and Wales.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

As I said I doubt that anyone in Courland or Prussia would think about supporting ties with Lithuania if not TO…

If not TO then Poland, Novgorod or Denmark would, but by that time Lithuania would be strong enough to take them by themselves.

 

[Herr Doctor]

Now as you mentioned it.

I would recommend delete Italian kingdom to show historical fact that it was land of independent Republics. On the other had, I suggest create new kingdom of Kievan Rus, or Rhutenia or doesn’t matter how..

It should consist of Kiev, Chernigov, Galich and Pereyaslavl or something like that. I strongly believe that it was just an accident, it was not called Kingdom, but it would make sense. This also would make logical for Lithuania to grab title and hold these land up to the end of CK history without fear of rebeling as they never did, contrary to Polish occupation.

It is discussable but I generally agree with idea. Still there (since 11th century) was a period of feudal division in Ruthenia, but as soon as we have the HRE modeled this way, I believe Rus’ also could be made a kingdom. At last it will help it much not to be annexed by Pechenegs in every early game.

And there is a title of "Kingdom of Russia" already in game, so thee is no need to add anything. It is just not used.

 

[Herr Doctor]

If not TO then Poland, Novgorod or Denmark would, but by that time Lithuania would be strong enough to take them by themselves.

Novgorod had enough time to do it (before 13th century), but it did not. And I doubt that Danish rule would provoke any sentiments to join Lithuania. You could compare Danish rule in Estonia and the Teutons in Prussia.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

It is discussable but I generally agree with idea. Still there (since 11th century) was a period of feudal division in Ruthenia, but as soon as we have the HRE modeled this way, I believe Rus’ also could be made a kingdom. At last it will help it much not to be annexed by Pechenegs in every early game.

And there is a title of "Kingdom of Russia" already in game, so thee is no need to add anything. It is just not used.

Not exactly that I meant. Kingdom of Russia represents Moscow Principality, Kiev-Rus represents Kiev Principality. It would make different and more accurate map.

 

[unmerged(47028)]

Novgorod had enough time to do it (before 13th century), but it did not. And I doubt that Danish rule would provoke any sentiments to join Lithuania. You could compare Danish rule in Estonia and the Teutons in Prussia.

Well, then other simple rule. Grab that is easy to grab and at the grasp of your hand, and Lithuanians would grab that without big problem and much less rebellion then with TO