Claimable duchy & kingdom setups for CK 1.05

[Quift]

Actually, as has been suggested before, were all divided by 10 then it wouldn't be the case so much.

In every discussion on this topic people generally seem to agree on it, is their a reason this isn't implemented? So that Loyalty more generally hover in the 30-70 % span instead of the rollarcoaster of love so familiar to CK and RHCP fanboys?

*RHCP = Red Hot Chili Peppers

 

[Brian Bóruma]

There's a (hardcoded?) loyalty bonus for Greeks in the Byzantine Empire. How about a negative loyalty bonus for vassals of the Rus'ian leader?

 

[unmerged(21937)]

That's the first time I hear about the idea of dividing loyalty modifiers by 10. It's not really the point of this thread, but it would really require dividing gift effects by 10 as well. Not to mention total overhaul of events dealing with loyalty.

Wouldn't it lead to eternal loyalty really though, since even at worst cases, you'd really have just something like -0.5% monthly and that would require a hundred months to go down from 50% to 0% and a hundred months isn't exactly short period of time.

EDIT: Brian, the less hardcoded bonuses there are, the better.

 

[Quift]

That's the first time I hear about the idea of dividing loyalty modifiers by 10. It's not really the point of this thread, but it would really require dividing gift effects by 10 as well. Not to mention total overhaul of events dealing with loyalty.

Wouldn't it lead to eternal loyalty really though, since even at worst cases, you'd really have just something like -0.5% monthly and that would require a hundred months to go down from 50% to 0% and a hundred months isn't exactly short period of time.

EDIT: Brian, the less hardcoded bonuses there are, the better.

Well, you could divide it by 5 instead, having a 50 months (four years) to make a radical change. And then the entire point would be to keep the event modifiers at 30% of whatever making them really important instead of knowing that even a 70% loyaltydrop is irrelevant since he'll be 100% in a matter of months. So then you have a hovering effect as a combination of eventseries and bonus/malus instead of the rocket up and down we have now. If it's doable in a patch, should I start up a new thread?

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Regarding the middle east, I'd like to see the kingdoms changed to something more like this, because the green thing is unsightly (and Syria/Arabia could use a few more provinces).

 

[unmerged(5822)]

EDIT: Brian, the less hardcoded bonuses there are, the better.

So how about getting that Byzantine loyalty bonus removed entirely?
(also because "Byzantine" and "loyalty" shouldn't be used without an odd number of negations)

 

[Quift]

Regarding the middle east, I'd like to see the kingdoms changed to something more like this, because the green thing is unsightly (and Syria/Arabia could use a few more provinces).

I actually prefer getting rid of arabia, splitting it between egypt, syra and mesopotamia. Arabia is to small and poor. Baghdad on the other hand is quite a juicy target,.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Regarding the middle east, I'd like to see the kingdoms changed to something more like this, because the green thing is unsightly (and Syria/Arabia could use a few more provinces).

Nah, don't like it. Baghdad is very good focal point for a kingdom and the while the kingdom is "unsightly" on the map, it more or less tries to follow the Eufrat-Tigris valley, which (afaik) has generally been politically self-contained unit.

So how about getting that Byzantine loyalty bonus removed entirely?
(also because "Byzantine" and "loyalty" shouldn't be used without an odd number of negations)

Johan-work.

 

[Calgacus]

Nah, don't like it. Baghdad is very good focal point for a kingdom and the while the kingdom is "unsightly" on the map, it more or less tries to follow the Eufrat-Tigris valley, which (afaik) has generally been politically self-contained unit.



Johan-work.

Byakhiam, do you not just think now that you might be better appeasing those who regard it as unsightly by reintroducing the Kingdom of Arabia? I know it's not wanted for game-play reasons, but it would make some people happier.

I'll just take this opportunity to repeat my mild obkections to the Iberia set-up. I don't think it should be so hard to recreate the Kingdoms of Castille and Leon (something likely to come up in game play) ... I mean, you shouldn't have to conquer most of Arab Spain to do it. Are you really so against a kingdom of Granada?

Anyways, how many tags will be left after your much needed improvements to the set-up? If there are many, perhaps we can have an optional file with other kingdoms included that many people want, like Granada, Navarre, Wallachia, but which you wish to avoid for game-play reasons.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Byakhiam, do you not just think now that you might be better appeasing those who regard it as unsightly by reintroducing the Kingdom of Arabia? I know it's not wanted for game-play reasons, but it would make some people happier.

Arabia is there or did I miss your point?

I'll just take this opportunity to repeat my mild obkections to the Iberia set-up. I don't think it should be so hard to recreate the Kingdoms of Castille and Leon (something likely to come up in game play) ... I mean, you shouldn't have to conquer most of Arab Spain to do it. Are you really so against a kingdom of Granada?

Adding Granada = Removing Leon, Portugal or Castile. And we don't want "really easy to recreate 6 prov kingdoms". Kingdoms should have *substance*.

Anyways, how many tags will be left after your much needed improvements to the set-up? If there are many, perhaps we can have an optional file with other kingdoms included that many people want, like Granada, Navarre, Wallachia, but which you wish to avoid for game-play reasons.

I'll add easy instructions on how to add any kingdom people want on their own versions. I can reserve tags for various kingdoms, there is plenty of kingdom tags IIRC.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

Nah, don't like it. Baghdad is very good focal point for a kingdom and the while the kingdom is "unsightly" on the map, it more or less tries to follow the Eufrat-Tigris valley, which (afaik) has generally been politically self-contained unit.

Then how about this? Politically, the western coast of Arabia was a part of Egypt for "the bigger majority" of CK's timeframe.

With this map, the Mesopotamian kingdom would look a good deal better, the "Arabia" area would belong where it did historically and Syria would look more, well, Syrian.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Then how about this? Politically, the western coast of Arabia was a part of Egypt for "the bigger majority" of CK's timeframe.

With this map, the Mesopotamian kingdom would look a good deal better, the "Arabia" area would belong where it did historically and Syria would look more, well, Syrian.

Look around the early parts of this thread about that. That's pretty close to what the kingdom setup looked there at the start of all this.

EDIT: Briefly, I like it, but there was some vocal opposition.

 

[Calgacus]

Arabia is there or did I miss your point?

I meant Arabia in the old form.

Adding Granada = Removing Leon, Portugal or Castile. And we don't want "really easy to recreate 6 prov kingdoms". Kingdoms should have *substance*.

Just take the bottom provinces of Leon, Castille and Aragon off. All the Iberian Kingdoms remain substantial, and Castille remains as easy to create as it should be:

Even better, IMHO, is this option:

The later Kings of Castille, it should be remembered, actually used the title King of Granada, so it won't result in anything odd should a CK game go according to history.

I'll add easy instructions on how to add any kingdom people want on their own versions. I can reserve tags for various kingdoms, there is plenty of kingdom tags IIRC.

For me, all I'll want is the list of available tags, since afterwards it will be unclear which are free unless one does an exhaustive search of the scenario files.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

I meant Arabia in the old form.

I still don't get you.

Just take the bottom provinces of Leon, Castille and Aragon off. All the Iberian Kingdoms remain substantial, and Castille remains as easy to create as it should be:

You missed half of my point, that adding Granada = Removing a Christian Iberian kingdom. And Granada-discussions in Iberia thread, please.

For me, all I'll want is the list of available tags, since afterwards it will be unclear which are free unless one does an exhaustive search of the scenario files.

I suppose I can do a kind of list there then.

 

[Calgacus]

I still don't get you.

The Kingdom of Arabia as it is in the game, with both coasts part of the recreatable area.

You missed half of my point, that adding Granada = Removing a Christian Iberian kingdom. And Granada-discussions in Iberia thread, please.

I don't get that. It would be adding a potential christian Iberian kingdom.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

The Kingdom of Arabia as it is in the game, with both coasts part of the recreatable area.

Wouldn't that make Mesopotamia too small then? Or at least even less nice-looking in the southern part. Or cause Arabia to be non-contiguous?

And Iberia thread is here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235970

 

[Calgacus]

Wouldn't that make Mesopotamia too small then? Or at least even less nice-looking in the southern part. Or cause Arabia to be non-contiguous?

Perhaps. I was just thinking along the lines of "when in doubt, don't change". Phoenix' latest suggestion looks OK, although it'd be a shame to lose the Kingdom of Arabia.

Wouldn't that make Mesopotamia too small then? Or at least even less nice-looking in the southern part. Or cause Arabia to be non-contiguous?

And Iberia thread is here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=235970

I'm sorry. This is the "Claimable Duchy and Kingdom setup" thread, I just thought that meant all discussions relating to this should be here. Ah well. Too late now, already posted, sorry.

 

[unmerged(21937)]

Perhaps. I was just thinking along the lines of "when in doubt, don't change". Phoenix' latest suggestion looks OK, although it'd be a shame to lose the Kingdom of Arabia.

Well, IIRC, the vanilla kingdom setup doesn't actually have Arabia going to the eastern side of Arabia, since kingdom of Basra is there. However, the purpose of the changes in Fantasy kingdoms was to make them bigger and more substantial. The setup on the first post has about as many as possible there already and to be fair, I think Mesopotamia is far more justified than Arabia as a kingdom. I don't see what is so wrong with the map on the first post atm though? Is there really too many kingdoms there?

I'm sorry. This is the "Claimable Duchy and Kingdom setup" thread, I just thought that meant all discussions relating to this should be here. Ah well. Too late now, already posted, sorry.

Granada is a special case, after we had over ten pages of Granada-only discussion clog up this thread really bad. Iberia thread has fairly good discussion on why Granada = No too, so it's a good read.

PS. My point of Granada = Removing a Christian kingdom, is that if you add Granada, you need to remove a Christian kingdom to maintain acceptable kingdom density in Iberia, which disagrees with more than four kingdoms in such a small area. If you wish to disagree to this point, please do so in the Iberia thread.

 

[Calgacus]

Well, IIRC, the vanilla kingdom setup doesn't actually have Arabia going to the eastern side of Arabia, since kingdom of Basra is there. However, the purpose of the changes in Fantasy kingdoms was to make them bigger and more substantial. The setup on the first post has about as many as possible there already and to be fair, I think Mesopotamia is far more justified than Arabia as a kingdom. I don't see what is so wrong with the map on the first post atm though? Is there really too many kingdoms there?

I don't think so. I was just trying to suggest a way to appease Phoenix.

Granada is a special case, after we had over ten pages of Granada-only discussion clog up this thread really bad. Iberia thread has fairly good discussion on why Granada = No too, so it's a good read.

PS. My point of Granada = Removing a Christian kingdom, is that if you add Granada, you need to remove a Christian kingdom to maintain acceptable kingdom density in Iberia, which disagrees with more than four kingdoms in such a small area. If you wish to disagree to this point, please do so in the Iberia thread.

Definitely disagree. There are four kingdoms in the British Isles, one of which (Wales), never existed in the period. Iberia is definitely a special case; it did have loads of Kingdoms, just look at Charles V's title list. Valencia, Murcia and other such places were actually kingdoms whose titles were added after "King of Castille, Leon and Aragon".

At any rate, I could care less if Granada is made a recreatable kingdom, but it does bother me that Castille is so hard to recreate. It seems like making the someone conquer western France, Wales and Ireland in order to recreate the Kingdom of England.

 

[Calgacus]

Anyways, Byakhiam, how do you feel these days about having a Duchy of the Canaries? Yeah, it's only one province on the map, but in reality should be about 7 provinces, and it was actually a King title in the later part of the period. Add to that its exotic location, I think any christian who conquers it deserves at least Duchy status, if not Kingdom status. Any way you look at it, the Canaries are special (it was one of the major game design flaws to even have it in the map, but it's here.).