"Claim the Byzantine Throne" Decision

[Harry Hinderson]

I've noticed a glaring hole in the mechanics of the Byzantine Empire. No, it's not that it has feudal government and doesn't properly represent what the Byzantine Empire was actually like, it's that there isn't a million people attempting to claim the Byzantine throne and declare themselves the new Roman Empire. (In fact, I don't think I've ever seen the Byzantine Empire reform after it broke apart).

Now historically, plenty of Empires have declare themselves the "New Byzantine Empire" without much recognition. The Serbian Empire, The Bulgarian Empire, The Empire of Thessalonica, and many others have all done this. However, only a few have been widely recognized by the general public due to their conquest of constantinople, those being The Latin Empire, The Roman Empire under The Palaiologos Dynasty, and The Ottoman Empire (Outside the timeframe of ck3, I know).

These seizures of the Imperial title all had certain things in common, but the main thing is that, with the exception of the Ottomans, none of them would actually be able to form/usurp the Imperial title in ck3, as they would need 81% of the land in

Here's a general outline of how an event that would be able to remedy this might look, please note that I have no idea whether this is possible in ck3 and this follows ck2's decision format as I'm familiar with it, but if it doesn't remember that this isn't an actual decision and just an outline.

Requirements:

• Adult
• At peace
• Independent
• Level of Fame is at least Illustrious
• Owns the entire kingdom of thessalonica
• Rank must be lower than Emperor

Effect:

• Constantinople becomes the Capital
• If catholic:
  • If Byzantine Empire title exists:
    • Usurp Byzantine Empire title
    • If Latin Empire title doesn’t exist:
      • Create Latin Empire title
    • If Latin Empire title exists:
      • Usurp Latin Empire title
    • All kingdoms de jure part of the Byzantine Empire become de jure part of the Latin Empire
    • Byzantine Empire title is destroyed
  • If Byzantine Empire title doesn’t exist:
    • If Latin Empire exists:
      • Usurp Latin Empire title
    • If Latin Empire doesn't exist:
      • Create Latin Empire title
      • All kingdoms de jure part of the Byzantine Empire become de jure part of the Latin Empire
• If other religion:
  • If Byzantine Empire title exists:
    • Usurp Byzantine Empire title
    • If Latin Empire title exists:
      • Usurp Latin Empire title
      • All kingdoms de jure part of the Latin empire become part of the Byzantine empire
  • If Byzantine Empire title doesn’t exist:
    • If Latin Empire title exists:
      • Usurp Latin empire
      • Create Byzantine empire title
      • All kingdoms de jure part of the Latin empire become de jure part of the Byzantine empire
      • Destroy Latin Empire title
    • If Latin Empire title doesn’t exist:
      • Create Byzantine Empire title

TDLR; If you have all of the kingdom of Thessalonika you can usurp the title of Byzantine Empire, and if you're catholic it's called the Latin Empire. The logic of this decision could be a lot more simple if the Latin Empire was just the Byzantine Empire but renamed when it's catholic, but I haven't seen an example of an empire changing color through flavor and a purple Latin Empire just feels wrong.

This could probably be accompanied by some sort of event that happens to former vassals of the Byzantine Empire before the title was usurped which gives them a claim on the title of their former liege.

Not only could this model the Byzantine Empire breaking apart if its core territories are taken by some external force, but also the reformation of the empire being possible after it breaks apart. This wouldn't actually enable the events of the 4th crusade to take place however, because the kingdom of Thessalonika isn't a very highly weighted

The main reason why this hypothetical decision requires the entirety of the Kingdom of Thessalonika instead of just the County of Constantinople or Duchy of Thrace is because I think that would be a bit too easy, but obviously I haven't tested how well this works because the decision isn't real.

 

[Matihood1]

Okay but I don't think Latin Empire should be limited to just catholicsm. What about heresies? And not just catholic ones. The requirements should probably be more pondered upon.

 

[Leonello d'Este]

Okay but I don't think Latin Empire should be limited to just catholicsm.

Well, this decision would be tied to a very specific historical event, and the Latin Empire was a Catholic Crusader State.

 

[Matihood1]

Well, this decision would be tied to a very specific historical event, and the Latin Empire was a Catholic Crusader State.

Yes but in an alt-hist game, having such inflexible requirements is pretty bad imo. Besides, it encourages gamey tactics such as amassing piety/perks, converting to catholicism for a second, clicking the button and converting back to your own religion. That's what I'd do if I couldn't form Latin Empire as a heretical ruler.

 

[Truenorth14]

Perhaps Muslim's can get something unique as well? Perhaps they expand the Sultanate of Rum?

 

[Matihood1]

Perhaps Muslim's can get something unique as well? Perhaps they expand the Sultanate of Rum?

Rûm*

The thing with the sultanate of Rûm is that it historically existed at the same time as Byzantium did, long before Constantinople was captured by the Ottomans (or any other muslims in that regard). The formation of Rûm should probably have way different requirements.

 

[Truenorth14]

Rûm*

The thing with the sultanate of Rûm is that it historically existed at the same time as Byzantium did, long before Constantinople was captured by the Ottomans (or any other muslims in that regard). The formation of Rûm should probably have way different requirements.

Forming Rûm is already a decision but it just requires Anatolia. Expanding Rûm would allow you to basically replace Byzantium.

 

[Byzantium2000]

I've noticed a glaring hole in the mechanics of the Byzantine Empire. No, it's not that it has feudal government and doesn't properly represent what the Byzantine Empire was actually like, it's that there isn't a million people attempting to claim the Byzantine throne and declare themselves the new Roman Empire. (In fact, I don't think I've ever seen the Byzantine Empire reform after it broke apart).

Now historically, plenty of Empires have declare themselves the "New Byzantine Empire" without much recognition. The Serbian Empire, The Bulgarian Empire, The Empire of Thessalonica, and many others have all done this. However, only a few have been widely recognized by the general public due to their conquest of constantinople, those being The Latin Empire, The Roman Empire under The Palaiologos Dynasty, and The Ottoman Empire (Outside the timeframe of ck3, I know).

These seizures of the Imperial title all had certain things in common, but the main thing is that, with the exception of the Ottomans, none of them would actually be able to form/usurp the Imperial title in ck3, as they would need 81% of the land in

Here's a general outline of how an event that would be able to remedy this might look, please note that I have no idea whether this is possible in ck3 and this follows ck2's decision format as I'm familiar with it, but if it doesn't remember that this isn't an actual decision and just an outline.

Requirements:

• Adult
• At peace
• Independent
• Level of Fame is at least Illustrious
• Owns the entire kingdom of thessalonica
• Rank must be lower than Emperor

Effect:

• Constantinople becomes the Capital
• If catholic:
  • If Byzantine Empire title exists:
    • Usurp Byzantine Empire title
    • If Latin Empire title doesn’t exist:
      • Create Latin Empire title
    • If Latin Empire title exists:
      • Usurp Latin Empire title
    • All kingdoms de jure part of the Byzantine Empire become de jure part of the Latin Empire
    • Byzantine Empire title is destroyed
  • If Byzantine Empire title doesn’t exist:
    • If Latin Empire exists:
      • Usurp Latin Empire title
    • If Latin Empire doesn't exist:
      • Create Latin Empire title
      • All kingdoms de jure part of the Byzantine Empire become de jure part of the Latin Empire
• If other religion:
  • If Byzantine Empire title exists:
    • Usurp Byzantine Empire title
    • If Latin Empire title exists:
      • Usurp Latin Empire title
      • All kingdoms de jure part of the Latin empire become part of the Byzantine empire
  • If Byzantine Empire title doesn’t exist:
    • If Latin Empire title exists:
      • Usurp Latin empire
      • Create Byzantine empire title
      • All kingdoms de jure part of the Latin empire become de jure part of the Byzantine empire
      • Destroy Latin Empire title
    • If Latin Empire title doesn’t exist:
      • Create Byzantine Empire title

TDLR; If you have all of the kingdom of Thessalonika you can usurp the title of Byzantine Empire, and if you're catholic it's called the Latin Empire. The logic of this decision could be a lot more simple if the Latin Empire was just the Byzantine Empire but renamed when it's catholic, but I haven't seen an example of an empire changing color through flavor and a purple Latin Empire just feels wrong.

This could probably be accompanied by some sort of event that happens to former vassals of the Byzantine Empire before the title was usurped which gives them a claim on the title of their former liege.

Not only could this model the Byzantine Empire breaking apart if its core territories are taken by some external force, but also the reformation of the empire being possible after it breaks apart. This wouldn't actually enable the events of the 4th crusade to take place however, because the kingdom of Thessalonika isn't a very highly weighted

The main reason why this hypothetical decision requires the entirety of the Kingdom of Thessalonika instead of just the County of Constantinople or Duchy of Thrace is because I think that would be a bit too easy, but obviously I haven't tested how well this works because the decision isn't real.

I feel it should be said that the Empire of Nicaea didn’t actually control the entire ingame kingdom of Thessaloniki lol.

Ck2 had the restore Byzantium option that required you to completely hold the 3 duchies of Thrace, Adrianopolis and Opsikion.

 

[Harry Hinderson]

I feel it should be said that the Empire of Nicaea didn’t actually control the entire ingame kingdom of Thessaloniki lol.

Eh, close enough

Plus it's not like that "Kingdom of Thessalonika" thing was the main sticking point

Ck2 had the restore Byzantium option that required you to completely hold the 3 duchies of Thrace, Adrianopolis and Opsikion.

That decision was way too limited. Only people of Byzantine cultures who were either greek or hellenic could take it and you couldn't do it while someone already held the title.

 

[Viridianus]

you couldn't do it while someone already held the title

Given the name of the decision, namely "Restore Byzantium", sounds intended. While someone is recognized as a ruler of Byzantium, one shouldn't be able to restore it.

Also, I feel like this is a thing that should properly be done with actual claims.

 

[Harry Hinderson]

Given the name of the decision, namely "Restore Byzantium", sounds intended. While someone is recognized as a ruler of Byzantium, one shouldn't be able to restore it.

I know the decision in ck2 and the decision im suggesting here are attempting to accomplish two different things, the previous person just sounded as if they were saying that they're both attempting to accomplish the same thing. In hindsight that doesn't seem to be the case however.

 

[Byzantium2000]

I know the decision in ck2 and the decision im suggesting here are attempting to accomplish two different things, the previous person just sounded as if they were saying that they're both attempting to accomplish the same thing. In hindsight that doesn't seem to be the case however.

Nah I brought that up I cause thought requiring key duchies over 1 complete kingdom more logical. Even the Latin Empire had part of Anatolia before it declined. Would arguably make the decision harder too.

Also that map is kinda wack. The Niceans Reformed Byzantium looking more like this.