Claim and counter CB?

[AKronblad]

I've tended to dislike the concept of (Fabricate) Claims on provinces, but now finally see some use for it in diplomatic considerations.

As I see the Claim setup too onesided and beneficial for the country having the Claim and the Conquest CB, I envisage a more balanced situation that through a "Counter" CB could add to the diplomatic considerations and challenges.

Basically, if a country has a Claim on any of your provinces (and thus a Conquest CB), you get a "Counter" CB (Anti-Aggression) CB on him with respect to all his provinces bordering you, as long as his Conquest CB is in place. That would make a Fabricate Claim act more risky and more interesting, in my view.

Is there already a setup for this (sorry, I never play vanilla! )?
If not, does it make sense? (If not, why not ?)
Is the AI likely to be able to handle it ?

 

[AP85]

This is an interesting idea, especially with the Give up Claims peace offer. If a country blatantly forges a claim on your land, you should get a CB on them.

 

[AKronblad]

Yep, that's what I think too: if anyone claims part of my territory, I'd have a 'valid' 'excuse' to declare war as an action of anti-aggression until that claim is revoked.

 

[IIWW]

Thats a good idea. With canceling claims, war reparations and maybe vassalage breaking as dip-free options (WS always nromal, or maybe even higher, since it's a "attacking-defensive" war).

 

[Lessing]

The claim forger is already penalized by potentially gaining AE, thus making it possible to push other countries into a coalition.

Your suggestion could be blatently abused by humans against the AI because the AI fabricates claims quite often.

 

[MeatPirate]

You've laid out the name and condition, what about:

Wargoal: Superiority
AE Modifier: 1
Prestige Modifier: 1.25
DIP Modifier: 0
Warscore Modifier: .5

Affected Peace Options: Revoke Claims, War Rep, Humiliate

Things I'm unsure about are adding core revoke to peace options and changing wargoal to take target province (one of their claims, which you already own). It's a bit weird to start a war controlling the wargoal, I'm not sure if I like this which is why I picked Superiority.

The claim forger is already penalized by potentially gaining AE, thus making it possible to push other countries into a coalition.

Your suggestion could be blatently abused by humans against the AI because the AI fabricates claims quite often.

If they can claim your land you can claim theirs and get a better CB for actually conquering. The only exception is if you only border their capital, which has a contiguous land border to at least one other province. I don't really see how this is abuse, you can even change the AE modifier to 1.5, warscore cost modifier to 1 and include provinces in the affected peace options to dissuade using it aggressively.

 

[AKronblad]

The claim forger is already penalized by potentially gaining AE, thus making it possible to push other countries into a coalition.

Isn't that a highly remote risk? Even too remote?

Your suggestion could be blatently abused by humans against the AI because the AI fabricates claims quite often.

Yes, that's what I am afraid of too.

 

[AKronblad]

You've laid out the name and condition, what about:

Wargoal: Superiority
AE Modifier: 1
Prestige Modifier: 1.25
DIP Modifier: 0
Warscore Modifier: .5

Affected Peace Options: Revoke Claims, War Rep, Humiliate

Things I'm unsure about are adding core revoke to peace options and changing wargoal to take target province (one of their claims, which you already own). It's a bit weird to start a war controlling the wargoal, I'm not sure if I like this which is why I picked Superiority.

Does 'Revoke Claims' exist among Wargoal's Peace Options? I can only see 'po_revoke_cores' in 00_wargoal_types.txt.

 

[IIWW]

just make it a high AE modifier, so the conquest CB (which You can use virtually anywhen. We're discussing a case where the other country can FC an You, so unless You only border their capital, You can also FC them) would be better for gaining land. Reparation etc doesn't cause AE, so these peace option wouldn't be affected anyway.

 

[yerm]

Revoke claims cost 20 warscore per country. I believe it's tied together with cores. I don't know that I've ever used it except as a way to inflate a peace timer.

 

[MeatPirate]

Does 'Revoke Claims' exist among Wargoal's Peace Options? I can only see 'po_revoke_cores' in 00_wargoal_types.txt.

Edit:
NvM, I misunderstood you. I don't see it either.

 

[MeatPirate]

Revoke claims cost 20 warscore per country. I believe it's tied together with cores. I don't know that I've ever used it except as a way to inflate a peace timer.

Yeah I don't like how it revokes cores as well, since we already have a peace option for that.

 

[AKronblad]

just make it a high AE modifier, so the conquest CB (which You can use virtually anywhen. We're discussing a case where the other country can FC an You, so unless You only border their capital, You can also FC them) would be better for gaining land. Reparation etc doesn't cause AE, so these peace option wouldn't be affected anyway.

True. The 'Counter Conquest' CB must be inferior (or highly inferior) to the Conquest CB, as it would otherwise make no sense to claim a province, but better to wait for enemy to claim. Purpose of the 'Counter Conquest' CB is for a country to be able to react upon a claim, and to put the claimant additionally at risk.

 

[yerm]

Perhaps a middle ground - a diplomatic action by which you demand a country renounce claims (cores?) on your territory, and a diplomatic insult or similar cb if they refuse. This mechanic could even turn it around for the useless requests for trade power and other similarly useless diplomatic actions.

In a different direction, it would be nice if the game really went away from claim-fabricate-spamming as the general ideal for expansion or at least early expansion.

 

[BaZERGer]

Issues with something like this would be that you can get claims without fabricating them, and you have no way of revoking a claim, unlike the recent option to revoke a core.

Also, a casus belli like this would have to be restricted, like restricted from taking land, as the direct counter to a counquest cassus belli, is fabricating your own claim on them.

Yeah I don't like how it revokes cores as well, since we already have a peace option for that.

I haven't been able to get this to happen, it only revokes claims when i try this.

 

[AKronblad]

Issues with something like this would be that you can get claims without fabricating them, and you have no way of revoking a claim, unlike the recent option to revoke a core.

Actually, no claims are given under this CB, although the temporary effect on neighbouring provinces may be the same.

Also, a casus belli like this would have to be restricted, like restricted from taking land, as the direct counter to a counquest cassus belli, is fabricating your own claim on them.

Trying to get away from only fabricating claims, as yerm above says.

 

[AKronblad]

In a different direction, it would be nice if the game really went away from claim-fabricate-spamming as the general ideal for expansion or at least early expansion.

Totally agree.

 

[yerm]

Also, a casus belli like this would have to be restricted, like restricted from taking land, as the direct counter to a counquest cassus belli, is fabricating your own claim on them.

I disagree 100%! Claim Fabrication should NOT be the counter to someone claiming your lands. Sorry you're already getting bombarded for this one, but I wanna chime in too!

First, it means you risk AE for fabricating back. Second, it is not always possible, if someone claims your land (such as from cap or via mission) and you do not have a valid target to fabricate on yourself. Third, and most important, this further pushes the whole concept of bullshit wars that really shine in this game but aren't in others, whereby you would be declaring a war of conquest, with a wargoal of conquering part of THEIR territory, but in the peace deal instead forcing them to revoke claims/cores. This is a gamey workaround. The solution needs to be a wargoal that is specific to the task at hand: a revocation of claims wargoal.

You do make a good point with revoke core. It needs to give a revoke claim option just the same.

 

[BaZERGer]

Actually, no claims are given under this CB, although the temporary effect on neighbouring provinces may be the same.

Doesn't matter what the casus belli does, as my missed point was, YOU can get claims on other nations without YOU having any control over it, it happens both from events, and nation forming, and you cannot revoke those claims yourself.

I disagree 100%! Claim Fabrication should NOT be the counter to someone claiming your lands. Sorry you're already getting bombarded for this one, but I wanna chime in too!

The point is that someone fabricating a claim on you shouldn't be a free casus belli to start your own conquest on them, there's no justifiable arguement for starting a war other than insult, which already exists in the game, and gets granted for several event-triggered claims. And the risk of suffering aggressive expansion is a problem in a counter? That's what they had when they went through the trouble of making the claim, why should the other side get a conquest-based war out of it for free?

Another country considering a part of your country as their rightful property does not grant you the right to launch an invasion on them based on that, with the freedom to do any time from imidiately, to some 25 years in the future. That is why i say fabricating your own claims are counter-claims, not a counter as in something that stops it, but a counter as in somthing that you can do to them in return.

The ONLY thing i would consider something that could be justified, would be diplomatic insult, which in itself has a sensibly limited time duration as well, and is still more conquest-relaxed than i'd like it to be. I'd frankly prefer if all the "conflict" type of casus bellis either were restricted from freely taking land, or had an increased province warscore cost and aggressive expansion penalty on them. A casus belli not designed for conquest should not be lenient towards it.

 

[Zander]

The base AE for getting caught fabricating is pretty huge, frankly. I find that to be enough of a penalty already - it's not worth doing unless you're very confident you're going to be taking the province soon.