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CKIII Dev Diary #26 - Map Scope

Salutations!

As a continuation from last week, I will be talking about the scope of the map and, perhaps more importantly, showing you how it all actually looks. Get ready for a very screenshot heavy DD!

Europe
Europe has been reworked from the ground up. We made sure to give all of Europe proper attention when painting baronies and counties. It was important for us to make sure we have a good and consistent quality level across the map. I’m sure you’ll find eastern Europe in particular fleshed out with a lot more detail than what you may be used to in CK2.

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Since we’ve already shown bits and pieces of Europe in screenshots and videos, let’s have a look at a few specific locations, and what special buildings they have available. Starting with France, it felt like an obvious choice to include Notre-Dame, one of the most recognizable cathedrals of the time period.

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Next up, Iberia. Featuring two major rivers, plenty of hills and a few special buildings. In the county of Granada you’ll find Alhambra. While merely an old ruin at game start, it can be upgraded to offer some of the highest fortifications in the game.

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Speaking of special buildings. The city of the world’s desire, features not one, but two, special buildings. This makes Constantinople a very spectacular holding, and if that isn’t enough, it also has the highest development level in the game.

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Before moving on, I’ll just leave this culture screenshot right here:

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The Middle East
The Middle East has seen the same level of attention and rework as Europe, with some particular attention spent on updating history across the region. For example, the Seljuks control a vast empire in 1066, properly representing their historical borders. They have a plethora of different cultures as their subjects and may fall apart if not careful.

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Development in the region is above your average starting levels. Baghdad, for example, starts out with one of the highest levels of development in the game — bested only by a few other locations such as Constantinople! Baghdad also has one of the single most impressive special buildings available, the House of Wisdom.

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Africa
Africa has seen some of the greatest additions to the map. No longer cut in half, the Sub-Saharan kingdoms have plenty of space to expand in as we have included the entire Nigerian coast.

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We have a total of five different pagan faiths to play as, giving you plenty of different options. A solid first pick would be Benin, within the Niger delta. They start off with a decent development level and access to a special building: The massive construction that is the Walls of Benin.

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Some cultures will start with the ability to sail major rivers, allowing them to use the Niger to quickly ferry troops back and forth. The coast on the other hand, will be open for everyone to use. You won’t be able to sail around the African coast to reach Europe however, or vice versa. That route is blocked by impassable sea, since it was often difficult, if not impossible, to sail along the western coast due to storms and rough seas. No viking raids in Africa, I’m afraid!

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Let’s not forget the Horn of Africa. Expanded to include Mogadishu, the area offers more space to play in, with christian, muslim, jewish, and pagan rulers all wanting a piece of each other.

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Finally, let's mention Egypt. A rich area that has a lot of floodplains, good development levels, and even a couple of special buildings. All encompassed by the Nile, a major river with green and lush vegetation.

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The Far East
Looking east, the map has been expanded to include the entirety of Tibet, along with a small extension of Mongolia, accompanied by a whole set of new cultures and faiths!

Starting with Tibet, the area has a whole bunch of independent realms since the Tibetan Empire is long gone by the time of our two start dates. There’s a wide range of rulers of different faiths and cultures spread out across the plateau. The two most prominent faiths being Bön and Nangchos, a Buddhist faith syncretized with different Tibetan beliefs and practices.

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Turning to Mongolia, there is a powerhouse present in both bookmarks. In 867, you have the Kirghiz Khanate, and Great Liao in 1066. Counties and provinces include Karakorum and the entire area surrounding lake Baikal.

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Expanding Tibet and Mongolia left us with a small empty space in the south, and we really couldn’t have that, now could we? So we went ahead and filled out Myanmar (or Burma) down to the Gulf of Martaban with brand new baronies and counties. Which gives you two rather interesting starting options. In 1066, you’ll be able to play as king Anawrahta of the Pagan Kingdom. Starting shortly after his conquest of the Mon kingdoms to the south, most of the area will already be under his control, giving you a great opportunity to push into India! Alternatively you can start as Pagan in 867, yet a small and upstarting kingdom, allowing you to play with the unique faith of Ari Buddhism.

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I’ll wrap it up here. Otherwise I’ll end up posting screenshots all day. Do you think I missed an important area somewhere? Let me know and maybe, just maybe, I’ll see if I can’t share some more.
 
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I think it's a bad choice to add so many regions from outside of the Crusader / Jihad area. Like Central Africa and yes, even India. It's just going to slow down the game and if Paradox would release the stats, I'm pretty sure Mongolia and India are among the least played areas.

What's the point anyway? Yes, Islam reached that far in those days, but the lands were never really contested. Just make separate games: ''Asian Dynasties'' and ''Jewels of Africa''.
 
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Adding China would be a completely new game... It would be like a 50€ DLC or such in 2025 and I truly hope that base CK is fully fleshed out when they even think about focusing on China.

Well, in some ways I agree with you. But you're so thoroughgoing in conclusion.
We've Byzantium. It works really bad in CK2. I don't have high hopes either for CK3, but let's see.
You think China system (in-game) will supreme different from Byzantium, right ?

We're not devs, so we should not know all pitfalls, but I believe reason why China is not in release - map and CPU issues, geometry, a hell work with characters and dynasties for China and surrounding countries.

I don't see as ppl said problem with political system (after we've Byzantine). But I may be wrong ofc.
 
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It's not just a matter of slapping on a bureaucratic government. It's also simulating the rest of the nuances of that bureaucratic government, society, and culture that Crusader Kings is not really designed around, because it is a map painter at the end of the day, and bureaucratic China gameplay would simply conflict with that in so many ways from a design standpoint.
Agreed. At this point, adding China would probably just devolve into a lot of weird hacks and rickety work-arounds. Something this complex would probably need its own separate game.
Adding China would be a completely new game...

I am not saying Paradox should go ahead and make Sengoku 2 with all of East Asia and North Oceania and with a vision centered around bureaucratic governments... But yeah, I am literally saying that.
 
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I think it's a bad choice to add so many regions from outside of the Crusader / Jihad area. Like Central Africa and yes, even India. It's just going to slow down the game and if Paradox would release the stats, I'm pretty sure Mongolia and India are among the least played areas.

What's the point anyway? Yes, Islam reached that far in those days, but the lands were never really contested. Just make separate games: ''Asian Dynasties'' and ''Jewels of Africa''.

Historically, CK covers days of Mongolian invasions. Mongolian China fought versus Ikhanate, and Mongolians reached Hungary and Germany.
So, historically, to add China is right option.

If judge by your way - Nigerian coastline is outside of topic. But we got it.
 
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I kind of hope that when Paradox inevitably adds supernatural/absurd events back we can get an invasion by the Christian army of Prester John either from Southeast Africa or east of Mongolia...
 
@Servancour

There is another modern dam lake present in the Caucasus (it is a bit harder to see due to the map colours) but the Mingechevir dam lake is visible in the screenshot you posted of the Seljuk polity. Its the large on on the Kura in Caucasian Albania. And just to be sure since its hard to make out: If there is a dam lake at Nakhchevan that is also a modern construction.

Sorry to ping you again, but I figured best to get them removed before release.
 
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I am not saying Paradox should go ahead and make Sengoku 2 with all of East Asia and North Oceania and with a vision centered around bureaucratic governments... But yeah, I am literally saying that.

In terms of representing Asia's history better, I'd be all for it, but sadly I don't know if it would make much business sense. I suppose those of us who want Asia represented with a foundation that really brings out its history, rather than having a vague pastiche of 12th century French feudalism used as the basis for political systems stretching across the entirely of Eurasia and Africa across eight centuries including but especially China's bureaucracy, are in the minority. A game similar to Crusader Kings, but takes as its basis bureaucratic administration rather than blobbing territory and map painting, would be amazing if not more revolutionary than Crusader Kings in terms of divorcing strategy gaming from its min-maxy conquest-focused roots, but I guess both of us are just dremaing at this point.

The strong stance I've taken on this issue aside, I'll be neutral if China is added from the gameplay perspective - it is what it is - but I don't expect anything revolutionary to make up for the issues I mentioned earlier that stem from the game's core design coming into conflict with the generalities of East Asian administration, culture, and history. people are going to be very disappointed if the devs do for China what Rajas of India was for India (i.e. criticized for being a "bland" copypasta of Western European feudalism in-game with minor and inconsequential differences). Of course, if you just want a kind of copypasta, then that's definitely fair, but if you're anyone is expecting anything deeper than RoI, I think disappointment is very likely.
 
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On the topic of China, despite being a Chinese history nerd who would kill for a fully-fleshed out depiction of Song in the immediate aftermath of Five Dynasties-Ten Kingdoms, trying to reconquer everything that was lost while operating by a completely distinct set of rules and a different (and rapid) tech progression within the same map as Feudal Europe, I honestly wouldn't be upset if we even got a poor man's version of it that doesn't truly do it justice early on, just so that future updates and expansions could iterate on it and eventually reach perfection over time. I feel even having a rudimentary imitation with potential to be fleshed out, guided by ongoing trial and error, would be better than having it not exist at all, or be relegated to an NPC-only off-screen entity again.

Although if I were to pick a Paradox game that feels the omission of China the most right now, I would choose Imperator over CK. Imperator's period encompasses much of the formative process that shaped the iconic "China Formula" that would persist through countless eras, invasions, dynasties and civil wars to come, while still possibly fitting within the Imperial mechanics of IR. But on the other hand... the impossible struggle of keeping together and trying to stabilise a region that everyone and their cow wants a piece of... Aaaaaaaaaaaah! I really hope one of the two eventually bites the bullet >.<
 
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Looking forward to playing it. BUT, as other said, i regret that once again India and China show up in a game called "Crusader Kings". We got Europa universalis for it. Wished for a more detailed Europe/Mid Est/Iran with lots more provinces there. Hope it will be possible for modders to remove those parts such as the far east and mid Africa.
 
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i regret that once again India and China show up in a game called "Crusader Kings". We got Europa universalis for it.
Read that again, but slowly.
 
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Well, in some ways I agree with you. But you're so thoroughgoing in conclusion.
We've Byzantium. It works really bad in CK2. I don't have high hopes either for CK3, but let's see.
You think China system (in-game) will supreme different from Byzantium, right ?

We're not devs, so we should not know all pitfalls, but I believe reason why China is not in release - map and CPU issues, geometry, a hell work with characters and dynasties for China and surrounding countries.

I don't see as ppl said problem with political system (after we've Byzantine). But I may be wrong ofc.
I'll bite: China would be extremely different from Byzantium. Just because both were centralized empires (to varying degrees, and changing over time) doesn't mean they were particularly similar politically. To take one minor example, Byzantium never had anything like the Imperial exam system, for instance, and yet that would be both expected for China in CK, and really hard to model in the current system.

And that's not even getting into the issue of representing China in such a way that it doesn't turn into a ginormous, unstoppable blob conquering its way to Europe. At least the Byzantines, even if they tend to blob, have the Seljuks/Abbasids to keep them somewhat honest.
 
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Paradox, please fix the spelling of Ukraine/Ruthenia/Kyivan Rus capital. It is Kyiv, not Kiev.
Please refer to the video recorded by Professor of Slavic languages below:

This option is appropriate only for modern city. In all other issues the only possible name is Kiev - it is just tradition to use historical name in historical context.

Using for Kiev in CK3 period name "Kyiv" would be the same as name Constantinople "Istambul", Reval - "Tallinn", Konigsberg - "Kaliningrad" etc.

This also true for Chernigov - NOT Chernigiv, Lvov - not Lviv. Even wiki use historical names of these cities in historical context:
 
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So, the map looks torn on its eastern edge in the bathroom clips floating around, does that mean we might see East Asia as a Rajas style expansion down the line?
 
This option is appropriate only for modern city. In all other issues the only possible name is Kiev - it is just tradition to use historical name in historical context.

Using for Kiev in CK3 period name "Kyiv" would be the same as name Constantinople "Istambul", Reval - "Tallinn", Konigsberg - "Kaliningrad" etc.
Those that advocate for 'Kyiv' are probably mistaking the traditional English usage of 'Kiev' for a (contemporary) transliteration of the Russian 'Киев'. Overall, besides the historical argument, 'Kiev' is the more neutral term while 'Kyiv' has a clear Ukrainian bias.

So yeah, Paradox should stick to 'Kiev'.
 
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Those that advocate for 'Kyiv' are probably mistaking the traditional English usage of 'Kiev' for a (contemporary) transliteration of the Russian 'Киев'. Overall, besides the historical argument, 'Kiev' is the more neutral term while 'Kyiv' has a clear Ukrainian bias.

So yeah, Paradox should stick to 'Kiev'.

Actually, it is correct not only from Russian point of view, but also from Polish.
After all, for some time Kiev was part of the Commonwealth.

The next step after "Kyiv" - lets call Kingdom of Germany "Kingdom of Nemetchina" and Kingdom of Hundary "Kingdom of Ugorschina" XDD
By the way, why Hebrew speakers dont ask to rename Jaffa to Tel Aviv and Acre to Akko?))
 
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