CK3: The Royal Court - The Vision

[Tiax]

A focus on internal realm management and internal politics? That is literally all I have wanted even back during CK2 and by god I am hoping this delivers.

I am hoping so badly that this can actually make it fun to play a small realm and not expand much, biggest issue I have always had with CK (in both 2 and 3) is that it gets to a point where your realm is incredibly stable and you then only have the choice of just sitting there staring at the map and doing nothing but answer event pop ups, or go blobbing and just conquer the world. Making the realm management more expansion and indepth as well as adding more politics and the like is some sorely needed and I hope this will bring.

We'll have to see. The description in the article makes it sound like holding court is just responding to more event pop ups:

"The foundation of holding court is, you always gain some Grandeur for performing the action itself. You invite your vassals and they come and they ask for help. Grandeur is part of the reward. But then, every single event that you get while holding court has its own unique setup and can affect any number of things within your realm," Oltner said.

"There might be movement of development, you might end wars between vassals or create friendships or make someone like you; there are many things and there's quite a large variety in what can happen here to keep things fresh."

If it's just more random events that mostly affect modifiers I don't have any reason to care about (does moving a few development points from one county to another really matter?), then I'm a little skeptical that it will represent a significant improvement to "internal realm management".

 

[CVDE]

Wait, did I understand this right, were going to be able to make our own custom cultures?

 

[Lordy's]

Having read the article about the expansion, I'm not so sure on the features anymore. To be honest, while the article offers more insights, it is of course not super detailled, but still, some things don't sound that great.

Firstly, I know, its somewhat nitpicky, but still. In the article it says
"You will be able to view the throne room, which acts as a "glorious bridge between the map, on one hand, and the character, on the other," from different angles. It will be stylized to fit FOUR different cultures"
I know that you cannot make visual distinctions for every single culture. Obvious. But seriously, why four?! I cannot find a way to group the world of CK3 into four visual areas for these purposes, at the very least, if you simplify everything, you'll need: European, Steppes, India, Oriental, (Subsaharan/East)African. That's 5! Come on! Not to mention that a few more distinctions would be really nice (i.e. northern/central/mediterranean Europe).

I think grandeur is good. Depends of course on the balancing; how easy it is to get to 100 and how much you get for it and there's a lot of potential to screw this balance off (cough, dread, cough), but it seems like a good way to a) create a large money sink and b) introduce artifacts without insane stat bloat.

Introducing languages also looks great. Speaking the a common language definitely makes a huge difference when it comes to personal relations. Not sure why it's a scheme though (I guess personal scheme), seems a bit weird. And the whole part with "if the person you learn the language from doesn't like you, they'll teach you wrong words and stuff" sounds a bit too silly. I guess we will have situations where the king of england asks his rival the emperor of byzantium to teach him greek but he will only learn mean words, haha so funny. a) Neither travel nor transport where that advanced in the medieval period and learning a language requires communication on an almost daily basis; b) a ruler would probably not teach some other guy from somewhere else his language -> rulers learned other languages from tutors. Of course there are exceptions where it does make sense (same realm and next to each other, neighboring and related, vassal in lieges court, guardian, spouses) and I hope that the feature will be restricted to such more plausible options.

Holding court in your throne rooms seems nice and we don't know a lot about it. I think it can be a good addition, yet it has to be careful to not feel like a repetitive event lottery. Also, some of the announced features (negotiating peace betwen vassals) should not be based on some RNG event, but be actual mechanics with actual negotiations taking place (don't even mention the "stop vassal war/ waste prestige button" we currently have).

And then culture. Firstly, dynamic cultures is good. Vikings invading india, would probably have some consequences. But, in my opinion it looks like it will be some "you are the cultural head so you can click this button and change your culture to be more Y if you have enough prestige" feature, which I don't like. Similar problem as with cultural heads, although more problematic. Doesn't make a lot of sense. Same goes for the "cultural divergence" button that we will get. Just because that one king says that now everyone is of that new fancy culture with his new madeup name and he spend a bunch of prestige for that, why should that all of his realm?
Cultural acceptance is again, a good idea in principle. But in practise, I think it will turn out quite underwhelming and suffer from many illogical situations being badly represented by this system. Being primarily driven by war/peace a lot of cultures will just hate each other, just because well, the AI likes to declare wars when it can. Do all wars count? With all the internal rebellions, I'm sure everyone hates everyone by the end of the first decade. And then, what if the (for some weird coincidence - happens all the time in this game) french king of southern england declares a war against northern england held by an english character? Will the english peasants now like the french less? Or the english? Probably the french, as they are in charge, but what if all his lords and knights are english? Doesn't make a lot of sense, right... And if the french king of england fights the english king of france, all the common folk will just be totally confused.
Furthermore, it kind of assumes that all english, regardless of where they live, are this kind of unified cultural entity. But if the french, with the help of their allies the northern english attack the southern english, I don't see why that should cause the northern english to loose opinion of their allies just because the southern english don't like to be invaded.
Don't take me wrong, I can see where the idea "fight wars -> culture relation gets worse" comes from (the english and the french, what a coincidence). I'm just sceptical because I think it will create too many situations where the players intuitive judgement of the situation does not match with the games mechanic, which I find super frustrating.
Also, I think there are some other factors that could go into this cultural opinions. For example language. We've got quite a lot of cultures on the map that do speak the same language (or at least a language so similar, that they can understand each other decently). With languages evolving over time now, this might provide a way for cultures to come closer together (without some godlike random buttons).

Finally, more court positions. I love that they introduce a salary. I've always wanted that back in the days of CK2, I tried to mod it into CK3 and I love that they now make it a proper feature. I just assume that it will also apply to councillors. Making these positions actually matter is of course the best part about it. But I expect to get regencies too!


TLDR: I'm very sceptical about how the cultural changes will work out in game. They seem to be very character focussed (click button and spend prestige -> your realms culture diverges/changes) and might from time to time create unlogical situation (french king with english lands & vassals attacking someone -> they hate the french). Maybe it would have been better to just make more character focussed mechanics - for me the trailer felt like this DLC would introduce more detailled wedding negotiations, promises and more court intrigue (minor titles), but well, maybe they haven't announced them yet.

 

[Karlington]

I was pretty positive until I read this part:

And what is a ruler without subjects, their people? After all, it's they who pay the taxes! Much like with faiths, cultures will be made more interesting and malleable - all in line with our vision of Player Freedom and Progression.

Different cultures will have different traditions, different opinions of each other, and even shift and change with time. No longer will cultures be static and similar - we want to give you, the player, the freedom and possibility to shape your own culture and guide its progress in a variety of exciting ways. Of course, culture will change at a slower pace than Faiths do - it’ll be gradual over time, tradition by tradition. Though sometimes larger shifts can occur due to isolation, or as the result of two different cultures intermingling.

Grow the acceptance between cultures in your realm, diverge your culture to adopt a new Ethos, or create a Hybrid between two cultures in your realm - adopting the language, traditions and aesthetic choices you find the most compelling. There are many possibilities to explore, and no two games will ever look the same again!

Does this mean that cultures will be as flexible as faiths? One thing I dislike about the faith system in CK3 is that it's too customizable, in that all faiths have access to 95% of various tenets and doctrines, so that any faith can be turned into anything. I quite liked the religion system of CK2, where the well-developed religions (not counting the various faiths, mainly heresies, that were pretty cookie-cutter). Playing a religion in CK2 was a unique experience, in CK3 each faith is a minor variation until you can reform it any way you want.

This is the same reason I dislike the way species work in Stellaris, where every species can access most traits, and love the system in Endless Space, where most species are a unique experience.

 

[hoffmads]

Now this is the sort of thing I was hoping for when I bought the DLC package with the game - some flesh to go on the solid bones of the base game.

 

[zaboli]

This sounds actually pretty promising I'm looking forward to the next dev diaries

 

[BrotherJonathan]

This certainly isn't what I was expecting for the first DLC, but I can't say I'm disappointed. "Dispensing justice" was a huge part of being a medieval ruler, and anything that represents that in greater detail is good. Dynamic cultures is a thing that a lot of people here have been begging for since release day, so that's good too. However, on that count, I do share the concerns of some here who pointed out that if it isn't properly implemented it could just lead to massive spamming of new cultures.

 

[pquinn232]

I strongly approve of the concept here. I look forward to approving of the execution!

 

[Tiax]

This certainly isn't what I was expecting for the first DLC, but I can't say I'm disappointed. "Dispensing justice" was a huge part of being a medieval ruler, and anything that represents that in greater detail is good. Dynamic cultures is a thing that a lot of people here have been begging for since release day, so that's good too. However, on that count, I do share the concerns of some here who pointed out that if it isn't properly implemented it could just lead to massive spamming of new cultures.

What, challenging foreign leaders to a duel because of their adultery isn't enough dispensing justice for you?

 

[Provenance]

I was just today thinking about how cool Dynamic Cultures would be! What a pleasant surprise. I think we're all excited for new ways of making quiltwork of the map.

 

[fodazd]

I am very pleasantly surprised by the theme of this expansion. I didn't know how much I wanted more court mechanics and dynamic cultures until now. I am hyped.

That said, I also agree that the actual implementation needs to measure up to these ideas in order for it to actually play well. The new things we can do in our court need to be actually meaningful, without being over the top power-creep like artifacts in CK2 were. Dynamic cultures need to allow us *some* influence on how the culture of our realm develops, without becoming completely detached from historical plausibility. I know that it's difficult to find the right balance here, but it's definitely worth trying!

 

[Reidy]

Really not what i was expecting, was hoping for something to do with Byzantium but honestly... im pretty darn happy with what I've seen, Artefacts was one of my fave added features in CK2s lifecycle and i missed it in CK3 so im chuffed it'll be coming to CK3 and from how it looks... artefacts will be quite a big deal, super stoked to see what modders do with it when they get their hands on it.

The cultural changes/additions also look really cool, the divergences sound interesting so will this be a completely dynamic system in-game where say France conquers Iberia will the Cultures slowly start to change as time goes on to suit the French overlords kinda like England did when the Normans took over?.

The whole thing sounds cool so yeah.. pleasantly surprised.

 

[Trey353]

Love the sound of the language stuff, such an unexpected way of increasing immersion. My question is are all characters monolingual when they come of age? I feel like if say, their father is German and mother French, the character should be able to speak both languages. It could be a pretty fun mechanic that would give the player that has a French mother an advantage in French diplomacy that one without would not have.

 

[pengoyo]

I know that you cannot make visual distinctions for every single culture. Obvious. But seriously, why four?! I cannot find a way to group the world of CK3 into four visual areas for these purposes, at the very least, if you simplify everything, you'll need: European, Steppes, India, Oriental, (Subsaharan/East)African. That's 5! Come on! Not to mention that a few more distinctions would be really nice (i.e. northern/central/mediterranean Europe).

The article also mentions that royal courts are only available for feudal and clan governments. So probably no special Steppe royal court as they are mostly tribal. So I'm guess the 3 of the 4 are Europe, Middle East, and India with the 4th probably being Subsaharan/East African (though I could also see Paradox doing a second type of European royal courts instead).

But I agree some more variation would be nice. Though I can see this as something they add more of down the line.

 

[fofodubendo93]

I was pretty positive until I read this part:

Does this mean that cultures will be as flexible as faiths? One thing I dislike about the faith system in CK3 is that it's too customizable, in that all faiths have access to 95% of various tenets and doctrines, so that any faith can be turned into anything. I quite liked the religion system of CK2, where the well-developed religions (not counting the various faiths, mainly heresies, that were pretty cookie-cutter). Playing a religion in CK2 was a unique experience, in CK3 each faith is a minor variation until you can reform it any way you want.

This is the same reason I dislike the way species work in Stellaris, where every species can access most traits, and love the system in Endless Space, where most species are a unique experience.

I think they said that what you can add to a culture depends on the ethos which is supposed to be a guiding principle to the culture. So that will restrict the amount of things you will be able to add.

 

[Ghostdevil]

(though I could also see Paradox doing a second type of European royal courts instead).

Feudal Norse court. Norse Norse Norse
Everyone loves them amiright? sigh

 

[pengoyo]

Really not what i was expecting, was hoping for something to do with Byzantium

As Byzantines are well known for their court intrigue I wouldn't be surprised if they got some extra goodies related to royal courts. Who knows, maybe even an imperial government built around royal court mechanics is also in the cards.

Alternatively I could see the follow up flavour pack to this expansion to be Byzantium.

 

[Scanz]

Republics, theocraties, sultanats, hordes? meh

any way more good sims stuff is a good

 

[Karlington]

I think they said that what you can add to a culture depends on the ethos which is supposed to be a guiding principle to the culture. So that will restrict the amount of things you will be able to add.

I just hope they don't make that too flexible. Like, there should be ethoses which are available to, say, a Dravidian, which would never be available to a Swede. I find that too much flexibility ruins the uniqueness of a particular location/culture/faith/*.* and I hope they avoid that.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Very interesting, can’t wait to read more about it in the coming dev diaries.