If you dont download the mod, you dont need to worry about your point. I dont see how your point stands when nobody is forcing you to use it. If you don't want the localization mod, don't use it.
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CK3 Ruler Title Project
- Thread starter TheGib770
- Start date
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If you dont download the mod, you dont need to worry about your point. I dont see how your point stands when nobody is forcing you to use it. If you don't want the localization mod, don't use it.
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I see, so "say nothing unless you agree with me"? Right.
Anyway, I'm actively collaborating with the mod. I'd just prefer a mod that is more subtle in its introduction of non-English words. That doesn't mean I want this mod to disappear. I've added some suggestions on Spanish and Catalan titles.
May I make a general suggestion now?
SPYMASTER. Get rid of it.
The title "Spymaster" never existed, at best it's a mix of "whoever reads my letters / closest confidant who knows stuff / keeper of the seal", at worst it's based on Game of Thrones. But translating a title that essentially didn't exist makes no sense, it's just a descriptor, like translating "army" or "foot soldier" or the tooltips.
I propose to change it into CHAMBERLAIN.
The Chamberlain was generally the manager of the king's chamber, meaning his day-to-day operations. A secretary, but also a powerful position, since he'd have access to the king in relatively private moments, and he'd be able to manage who has access to him, and know about his correspondance before him.
Medieval offices were usually overlapping and their sphere, unclear. They also tended to be hereditary, which made them honorific in a couple generations, but let's forget about this for now.
You'd have a Marshal for the army.
A Steward for the money.
A Chancellor for the diplomacy.
And a Chamberlain for the secrets.
I think this is better than the neutral and ahistorical "Spymaster". What do you think?
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It's just to point out how pointless your comment is. I don't want to play with anime portraits but I wouldn't go on to the development thread of an anime portrait mod just to tell them I don't want to use it.
That said, I understand your viewpoint and even though I've put a lot of work into this mod I'll probably just play with an improved version of English names like you suggest. I mostly do this just for sheer nerdy enjoyment.
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I understand. So change of topic..... chamberlain?
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I kind of like the name Spymaster. Ahistorical or not, it succinctly conveys their function. I also think Chamberlain is a bit off. The Spymaster's primary function appears to be to discover the schemes and plots of others. This doesn't appear to have been a function of historical Chamberlains. If it's anything like CK2 there'll also be sundry tasks which has the Spymaster working away from the ruler, sometimes even abroad, which is obviously contrary to the functions of a Chamberlain.
I'm not aware of an appropriate medieval title which encompasses the functions of a Spymaster, and "spymaster" is a more modern term. I fear that Chamberlain, though appropriately medieval, would cause confusion about the position's duties.
That being said, I'm totally fine with another title for Spymasters if people can find one. I'm also not dead set against Chamberlain. CK2 had Court Chaplains, after all, and most of their tasks wouldn't have been appropriate for a real medieval Court Chaplain either.
The "working abroad" function was always, to me, a bit bizarre, and I always rationalised it as "sending people to investigate". It makes little sense as it is. That said, Varys did travel a lot. And fast.
Steward and Chancellor are also very much confusing. As I said, no single court office in the Middle Ages managed only one thing. It was up to the man to decide how much he wanted to do. Cardinal Wolsey or Markward von Annweiler had a specific titles, but much wider power. And vice versa, some people had wide attributions but never really attended their functions because the title had been patrimonialised by their family.
I understand, but when it comes to translating.... what should be done? Just use "Maitre Espion" and whatever you can cook in Old Norse, Middle Persian or Church Slavonic?
Well, Varys is fictional. And his title was Master of whisperers, which I think sounds a bit too flowery for the game, heh.
In CK2 the Spymaster actually did travel to a target province. He'd be located there, catch diseases there, and could even be arrested by the ruler there.
Yup, many titles are a bit confusing. That's why I don't have an overly firm opinion about them, to be honest, as long as they make some sense (i.e. no naming the one in control of intelligence Court Chaplain or the one in charge of religion Spymaster, heh
).I have to admit that you lost me here, man. How did we go from "the titles are a bit inaccurate" to translations to old Norse?
If you're asking me how we would translate the titles into appropriate languages for the various cultures in the game, then I don't think Paradox is aiming for unique titles for every culture. If they are, I'm afraid I have little to contribute - I'm only fluent in Swedish and English, and I don't know a word of Old Norse.
By the way, we could always let people change the names of council titles. Want to call your Spymaster the Supreme Savant of Sneaky-Sneaky? Or your Court Chaplain the Lord of the Library? Go ahead!
I have no idea what kind of work that would create for the developers, though - it might not be worth the effort.- 2
I have to admit that you lost me here, man. How did we go from "the titles are a bit inaccurate" to translations to old Norse?
If you're asking me how we would translate the titles into appropriate languages for the various cultures in the game, then I don't think Paradox is aiming for unique titles for every culture. If they are, I'm afraid I have little to contribute - I'm only fluent in Swedish and English, and I don't know a word of Old Norse.
This mod is about localising titles, isn't it? So the translations matter here.
By the way, we could always let people change the names of council titles. Want to call your Spymaster the Supreme Savant of Sneaky-Sneaky? Or your Court Chaplain the Lord of the Library? Go ahead!
That would be sweet. I don't know why they don't let us do that.
I see. I thought it was only about ruler titles (per the thread title). Whoever is going to enter all this will be a hero.
With regards to spymasters, it kind of makes sense that there are no historical titles. In my opinion it's not supposed to be an official position but a sort of 'minister without portfolio' working from the shadows that you're not going to see talked about in the manuscripts.
I certainly wouldn't call them a 'chamberlain'. Chamberlains were foremost officials, responsible for managing the noble household, quite often closer to a medieval Prime Minister with wide ranging powers. To reduce their role to spymaster just seems wrong, steward is closer to the mark.
I certainly wouldn't call them a 'chamberlain'. Chamberlains were foremost officials, responsible for managing the noble household, quite often closer to a medieval Prime Minister with wide ranging powers. To reduce their role to spymaster just seems wrong, steward is closer to the mark.
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Sure, they were usually unofficial positions.
Again, the reach and array of powers held by any court office in the Middle Ages was widely inconsistent, usually overlapping, and in constant evolution.
That's why I'm advocating for a pragmatic use of the titles we have, not a literal one, because then we'll go mad. CK uses Steward for the money and Chancellor for diplomacy, but you could reverse them and you wouldn't have veered far from the mark, because there were Stewards (the word was usually translated in Latin as Seneschalcus, so Seneschal goes with it) that had "diplomatic functions" and Chancellors with wide treasury powers (the Chancellor of the Excequer, for instance).
But I understand your position, it's a murky situation. It's also a bit pointless.
Let's say Alice and Bob want to play CK in multiplayer, Alice has the game language set to English, while Bob to Korean. Are you saying they would have different checksums or having out of syncs? And if not, what is the fundamental difference between having completely different localizations (again, assuming it actually works) and having culture-specific titles while keeping everything else?
Since we're somewhat on the topic, should we be thinking of stewards more as treasurers or administrators? In-game they're pretty much a blend of the two but unfortunately it's not always the case in reality that the officer running the finances was also the officer administering the realm (which I personally feel CK stewards lean more towards) so it would help to get an idea of which one we should prefer when it comes to picking titles.
I think they work pretty well as both, to be honest. From what I know the lords of the middle ages generally didn't have a bureaucracy of people specialized in various fields to provide efficient management of the realm.
For the middle french translation, most words are translated in modern French rather than middle French. I am a Frenchman and here are some translations I suggest (although I am not an expert) :
I used : http://www2.atilf.fr/dmf/
English - Modern French - Middle French
Empress - Empereuse (Impératrice) - Emperesse
King - Roi - Roy
Queen - Reine - Reyne
Heir Apparent - Dauphin - Daulphin (or Daufin)
Heir Apparent (f) - Dauphine - Daulphine - Note : She is not the heiress but the wife of the Dauphin. The word can be used somewhat ahistorically for those who do not want 100% historical accuracy.
Marquess - Marquis - Marchis (you can also use Marquis)
Marchioness - Marquise - Marchise (you can also use Marquise)
Count - Comte - Conte
Countess - Comtesse - Contesse
Elector - Électeur - Electeur
Elector (f) - Électrice - Electrice
Kingdom - Royaume - Royaulme
Principality - Principauté - Principaulté
County - Comté - Conté
I used : http://www2.atilf.fr/dmf/
English - Modern French - Middle French
Empress - Empereuse (Impératrice) - Emperesse
King - Roi - Roy
Queen - Reine - Reyne
Heir Apparent - Dauphin - Daulphin (or Daufin)
Heir Apparent (f) - Dauphine - Daulphine - Note : She is not the heiress but the wife of the Dauphin. The word can be used somewhat ahistorically for those who do not want 100% historical accuracy.
Marquess - Marquis - Marchis (you can also use Marquis)
Marchioness - Marquise - Marchise (you can also use Marquise)
Count - Comte - Conte
Countess - Comtesse - Contesse
Elector - Électeur - Electeur
Elector (f) - Électrice - Electrice
Kingdom - Royaume - Royaulme
Principality - Principauté - Principaulté
County - Comté - Conté
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True, but I'll still often come across material that will say that x was the title of the person in charge of accounts and finances and money in general while y is the person administering the ruler's holdings and the income from them so it can be difficult to choose between them when the game steward basically does both.
Hey I first just wanted to apologize if my comments came off rude. I've been on edge this week from events in my country and dealing with my family. The comment I made was dismissive, but that is due to bad communication between the both of us.
I had most of these in there from wikitionary, but someone replaced the words. I changed it back with the new source.
As far as council positions are concerned, many people have already added names that are not based on the 4 positions' given names but are replaced with words unique to their language. Spymaster itself is already called Mystikos in ck2 if I remember correctly.
I had most of these in there from wikitionary, but someone replaced the words. I changed it back with the new source.
As far as council positions are concerned, many people have already added names that are not based on the 4 positions' given names but are replaced with words unique to their language. Spymaster itself is already called Mystikos in ck2 if I remember correctly.
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Impressive work, but personally, not for me.
I myself would use localised titles only when they're of some special cultural significance or do not directly translate to english equivalent, so using Shah or Sultan is fine, but Roi or Emperour, is not.
I wouldn't even use Kaiser, since I almost never saw it untranslated except when referring to Second Reich (and 99% it referred to Wilhelm II specifically). Furtherore, medieval HRE is universal christian empire, not specifically of German nation, another reason to not use endonym.
I myself would use localised titles only when they're of some special cultural significance or do not directly translate to english equivalent, so using Shah or Sultan is fine, but Roi or Emperour, is not.
I wouldn't even use Kaiser, since I almost never saw it untranslated except when referring to Second Reich (and 99% it referred to Wilhelm II specifically). Furtherore, medieval HRE is universal christian empire, not specifically of German nation, another reason to not use endonym.
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I believe they officialy used Imperator Romanorum which is Emperor of the Romans. If translated into the native tongue they would probably use Romisch Kaiser. While you do have a point that the HRE may not always use Kaiser, the Germans definitely did. If anything Imperator Romanorum would be a good conditional title for a christian emperor of the HRE.