CK3 Ruler Title Project

[TheGib770]

I believe we'll need an entry for plain old bishop, since count-level Catholics will have that instead of an archbishop. Also, maybe feminine forms of the councillor positions.

Titles for the Title God!

I have added a sheet for religious titles. I will try to see if I can default it to the religious titles for cultures that do not have a title for every single religion. If you can confirm a religion is in the game, you can follow how I did three of them.

 

[Karlington]

Titles for the Title God!

A follower of Khorne, eh?

 

[Aemr]

Titles for the Title God!

I have added a sheet for religious titles. I will try to see if I can default it to the religious titles for cultures that do not have a title for every single religion. If you can confirm a religion is in the game, you can follow how I did three of them.

Moar! Always MOAR! Seriously though I think that's it pretty much covered. At least until the game comes out and we realise there's a hundred and one more things to be localised.

 

[Viridianus]

I believe we'll need an entry for plain old bishop, since count-level Catholics will have that instead of an archbishop. Also, maybe feminine forms of the councillor positions.

Agreed. Maybe a priest, too.

In general, with new setup there is no title that will guaranteedly be gender-restricted.

 

[Palfouri]

Not sure if I want to edit it myself since I don't want to mess anything up, but I did notice the Norman section seems to lean more towards the modern language. When I made a similar personal mod for CK2 I used the Roman de Rou as a base for the Norman titles since it seems to be one of the best examples of the form of the language in the CK2 period but without having the later English-related developments of Anglo-Norman. If you're interested, here are the changes I'd make

King: Rei
Queen: Reigne
Emperor: Emperéor
Empress: Emperesse
Kingdom: Regne

 

[TheGib770]

Not sure if I want to edit it myself since I don't want to mess anything up, but I did notice the Norman section seems to lean more towards the modern language. When I made a similar personal mod for CK2 I used the Roman de Rou as a base for the Norman titles since it seems to be one of the best examples of the form of the language in the CK2 period but without having the later English-related developments of Anglo-Norman. If you're interested, here are the changes I'd make

King: Rei
Queen: Reigne
Emperor: Emperéor
Empress: Emperesse
Kingdom: Regne

Added and listed source.

 

[TheGib770]

Another Sheet update:

Rules and Guidelines for formatting have been added. Hopefully to keep the constant changing of 'popular' cultures. Disscussion should be in the cell comments or on this thread. Please source your submission if its generally not well known

Contributors sheet: Feel free if you want to add yourself here and your contributions, I went ahead and added those I know and have already commented to clean the rest of the sheets.

This will be the restructuring before release, I think it's perfect for now. I am going to be asking ck2 modders who have already done some of the work for some dead languages. We are still generally missing the rest of Italy, Balkans, and everything east of the Rus and Arabia. I will generally be quieter this week as I have work that doesn't have a set schedule and car repairs to do.

Thanks for all your help!

 

[Olden Weiss]

Wonderful to see the community working together like this. I'm afraid I don't have much to offer, but I wanted to weigh in and thank everyone for their efforts! This will certainly be a worthwhile mod.

 

[FranzVonG]

I filled some of the missing Italian titles and I will try to complete the rest this week. I will try to find a proper source for Longobard titles. I would at the time being skip Gallo-Italian, as it's actually a family name for a lot of languages that are phonetically quite different.

 

[Viridianus]

Rules and Guidelines for formatting have been added

Originally too many columns were fixed to the left, not fitting into a screen nor allowing for moving; I think I unfixed them but just in case - maybe you should check for such things.

a lot of languages that are phonetically quite different

Were these differences in place by 9th century?

 

[TheGib770]

I would at the time being skip Gallo-Italian, as it's actually a family name for a lot of languages that are phonetically quite different.

Blame Paradox for the sin of putting Genoa and Venice together.

But the paradox given culture of Cisalpine is based off Occitan.

Were these differences in place by 9th century?

Yes, the west is closer to Occitan

 

[Iustinus Tempus]

Shouldn't there be a female section for commanders?

 

[Viridianus]

Blame Paradox for the sin of putting Genoa and Venice together.

OK, I'd suggest assuming they'll listen to half a dozen threads and split off Venetian sooner or later, so we should think of this as of non-Venetian Cisalpine in terms of giving, well, terms.

 

[Keder]

My thoughts on east slavic realms:
Emperor: Tsar
King: Velikii Knyaz
Duke: Knyaz
Count: Udel'nii Knyaz
Baron: Zemskii Boyarin

Empire: Tsarstvo
Kingdom: Velikoye Knyazhestvo
Duchy: Knyazhestvo
County: Udel'noye Knyazhestvo
Barony: Votchina

Explanation: Grand Duke/Grand Prince was de facto king-tier level because of the sheer size of such domain (see Grand Duchy of Kiev or Grand Duchy of Vladimir) and because the title of the ruler of whole Rus (which is definetly a kindom-tier) was always Grand Duke. Every ruler below was just Prince (Knyaz) and there is no clear tier list for them. However after fragmentation of Rus principalities, all those small independent shards were called Udels (Уделы, Удельные Княжества). I believe we could call smaller principalities Udel'noye Knyazhestvo. The highest ranks after princes were boyars (Boyarin) and "zemskii" means "landed". Feudal estates were called votchinas and I think we could call smallest estates like that. Note: actually princes ruled over cities as they were administrative, population and trade centers. Boyars were not rulers by law but rather land owners.
Volost' and Volostel' are things from much later age. Volostel' was more like Viceroy.
Voyevoda was universal title for everyone who manages army (including commanders). Tysyatskii is one who literally leads tysyacha (thousand men) in battle. So probably commander should be Tysyatskii and marshal should be Voyevoda.

 

[Viridianus]

Most of these comments are quite valid, on some, however, I shall elaborate.

The highest ranks after princes were boyars (Boyarin) and "zemskii" means "landed".

iThis one is complicated. The problem is that these guys aren't quite supposed to be castle-holders. The term is a lot like "a prince's vassal".

Volostel' was more like Viceroy.

Well, volost' is too little to correspond to the CKII-level understanding of Viceroy so using Volostel' for Viceroy would also be bad.

Voyevoda was universal title for everyone who manages army (including commanders). Tysyatskii is one who literally leads tysyacha (thousand men) in battle. So probably commander should be Tysyatskii and marshal should be Voyevoda.

Here I have to disagree. The only place where I could find both to be seen is Novgorod - and it seems to have had one тысяцкой but many voyevodas.

 

[Iustinus Tempus]

Oh! Something else crossed my mind but since we have the sections for Grand Duke and Grand Duchess, shouldn't there be a section for Grand Duchy?

 

[Viridianus]

Oh! Something else crossed my mind but since we have the sections for Grand Duke and Grand Duchess, shouldn't there be a section for Grand Duchy?

Added (I trust @Shiner770 won't be against it).

Now, guys, I need a decision. There are some titles which, in Old East Slavic, include a male adjective (nouned or not): степеннЫЙ посадник, великИЙ (and удельнЫЙ) князь, тысяцкИЙ, вселенскИЙ патриарх. All of these could have ой instead of the capitalized part. The problem is: the distinction is actually dialectal. Western East Slavic (sic! Approximately - Lithuania-held part) has ый (which after к became ий at a certain moment). Eastern East Slavic originally has -ой but in official texts, Old Church Slavonic interfered, and it has ый. Given these linguistic facts, what would you prefer to see: ной/кой, ный/кый or ный/кий?

 

[Urkaun]

Adding '-ing' to masculine nouns doesn't automatically make them feminine in Old Norse, so words like 'Keisaring', 'Stórrhertoging', 'Hertoging' etc. aren't grammatically correct.

I really disagree with using 'Hertogi' or 'Stórrhertogi' in Old Norse for a duchy-tier title. 'Hertogi' in Old Norse is either derived from Proto-Germanic 'harjatugô', literally meaning 'army-leader'. Or, it's potentially a late-13th century borrowing from Middle Low German 'hertoch', which is derived from the same root; however, by the 13th century it acquired the feudal meaning of 'duke' in the Holy Roman Empire due to it being used to translate Latin 'dux'. Either way, it wouldn't be used to refer to a territorial feudal duke in 9th century or even 11th century Scandinavia. If anything, it would be used to refer to generals and commanders of a Norse 'herr' (army).

'Riddari', likewise, is definitely a 13th-century borrowing from Middle Low German 'ridder', meaning 'rider' i.e. a knight, but wouldn't be used to refer to a Norse warrior in 867 or 1066 AD. A more appropriate term would be 'húskarl' or 'þegn'.

I'd use 'hersir' instead of 'þegn' for the baron-tier title in Old Norse. A 'hersir' in Viking Age Scandinavia was a local chief of a 'herað' (administrative district roughly comprising 120 households).

For Old Norse, my suggestions would be:

Emperor - Keisari
King - Þjóðkonungr (Gyða uses this title in Heimskringla to describe King Gormr of Denmark and King Eiríkr of Sweden when she rejects Haraldr Fairhair because he 'is only king over a few districts')
Petty king/independent duke/independent count - Konungr
Vassal duke/high chief - Jarl
Vassal count/chief - Hǫfðingi
Vassal baron - Hersir
Vassal temple-holder - Goði

Queen - Dróttning
Prince - Ǫðlingr
Princess - Dróttning (wives and daughters of kings were both called this)
Knight - Húskarl or Þegn
Commander - Hertogi or Foringi

Marshal - Stallari
Steward - Bryti
Chancellor - Dróttseti
Spymaster - Spæjari
Court Chaplain - Dróttgoði

 

[TheGib770]

Emperor - Keisari
King - Þjóðkonungr (Gyða uses this title in Heimskringla to describe King Gormr of Denmark and King Eiríkr of Sweden when she rejects Haraldr Fairhair because he 'is only king over a few districts')
Petty king/independent duke/independent count - Konungr
Vassal duke/high chief - Jarl
Vassal count/chief - Hǫfðingi
Vassal baron - Hersir
Vassal temple-holder - Goði

Queen - Dróttning
Prince - Ǫðlingr
Princess - Dróttning (wives and daughters of kings were both called this)
Knight - Húskarl or Þegn
Commander - Hertogi or Foringi

Marshal - Stallari
Steward - Bryti
Chancellor - Dróttseti
Spymaster - Spæjari
Court Chaplain - Dróttgoði

You can change them.

I did these when I planned on making my own mod in ck2 about a year ago and its based off Icelandic.

Is Þjóðkonungr basically like "high king?"

Also I'll probably get the rest of religions added on Thursday as my schedule cleared up heading into the weekend and my break.

 

[Urkaun]

Is Þjóðkonungr basically like "high king?"

Pretty much. 'Þjóð' in Old Norse seems to denote a nation, like the Norðmenn (Norwegians), Danir (Danes) or Svíar (Swedes).

'Þjóðkonungr', as it's used in Heimskringla, is describing Gormr and Eiríkr as kings over all Denmark and Sweden, respectively; whereas Haraldr Fairhair only rules Vestfold in south-east Norway at the time he proposes to Gyða. She's basically mocking Haraldr's petty kingdom in comparison to the unified, national kingdoms of Gormr and Eiríkr.

Also, in the Viking Age, most independent rulers would have been titled 'konungr', regardless if they are kingdom-tier, duchy-tier or county-tier size in Crusader Kings. So in 867 AD, all of the independent county-tier rulers in Norway would be 'konungr'. As soon as they become vassalised, they would become 'jarl' or 'hǫfðingi'.

The major change in terminology of Old Norse landed titles occurs in the late 13th century due to heavy influence from the Holy Roman Empire, with influences and borrowings from Middle Low German into Old Norse vocabulary. But for both the 867 AD and 1066 AD start dates, 'feudal' titles are still quite foreign in Scandinavia.