CK3 Dev Diary #33 - An Offer You Can’t Refuse

CK3 Dev Diary #33 - An Offer You Can’t Refuse

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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Xain

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Asking it again, but is there a "fine print" that allows vassal to wage war within the realm? And outside the realm?
 
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Varus90

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Cats are the only animals that do things for their human friend, without expecting a reward. I mean are we really happy when they provide us an dead mouse indoors? The only reason they do, is the fact that they care about their employees.
Cats actually think you're just a large, very stupid cat, albeit one who can open doors and cans. So they love you, but they're frustrated with you.
 
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Woifee

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@Faerillis: going from a duke to a margrave is a demotion. Now if a count would get a march contract, then it IMHO should become a margrave. An example of a duchy with march contract would be Austria, before it became an archduchy (promotion to palatinate contract).
Actually Austria became a Duchy after it was a margrave. Only way later they forged the Privilegium Maius to increase themselves to Archduchy. And then it took until
a Hapsburg became Emperor until the forgery was recognized by the Empire and other Rulers.
 
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Gunthah

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You will be informed of the change to your contract and deal with it ;) The AI won't do too many changes at once though and of course if you really dislike it you can rebel to be free of it all.
I understand the liege changing the contract without the vassal's approval as this is compensated by tyranny and the vassal's opinion, but I don't understand how if a vassal decides that it's going to pay more money and send less men the liege cannot oppose this and just has to sit there and take it.
 
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Gunthah

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Very nice, I'm excited that you're listening to community feedback too!

On that note, is it possible for vassals (or lieges) to offer short term support for a long term change in the vassal contract? I.e. say a vassal offers to join in a war or a succession crisis in return for a looser contract. Historically (and from gameplay) vassals should generally want to be as autonomous as possible unless they have a strong attachment to their liege or realm. They should have mechanisms to legally loosen the monarchy's long-term centralization without going all "LIBERTY OR DEATH" the way it is in CK2.
"Finally the war-torn Byzantine Empire puts a decade of civil war behind it as the Emperor has agreed to ask his council for an opinion if he ever decides to banish some prisoner."
 
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Woifee

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I understand the liege changing the contract without the vassal's approval as this is compensated by tyranny and the vassal's opinion, but I don't understand how if a vassal decides that it's going to pay more money and send less men the liege cannot oppose this and just has to sit there and take it.
This is the Situation with AI liege and player vassal.
 

Gunthah

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This is the Situation with AI liege and player vassal.
Yes. I was assuming that balancing one thing with another would be fine for the AI, but it would make sense that whether player or AI, the liege should have the ability to oppose the change. Maybe because they just dislike the vassal or because they are short on men, etc.

However, it could also be that with only limited changes being allowed and the ability to only change the contract once per character it all plays out as gradual change and the liege can still push change in a certain direction. It just seems odd that a liege would get in the post a change to the contract with his signature on it that he can do nothing about.
 
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Lord Cuddlesworth

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I gotta say, this looks a lot better than the old version way back in DD 17. I wasn't so sure about it then, but I actually really like the look of this now.
 
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crusaderking

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You will be informed of the change to your contract and deal with it ;) The AI won't do too many changes at once though and of course if you really dislike it you can rebel to be free of it all.
Is there a way to improve the way you're informed of this? It makes no sense that the player will have to just deal with their liege unilaterally changing their contract when the player has a hook to ward off such a change. The event window have a few options like:
(1) Accept the change,
(2) Use a hook to prevent the change [only if you have a hook, that is],
(3) suggest a counter-offer [only if the liege doesn't use a hook against you], and
(4) Rebel.

Also, is there a cool-down period for changes to the contract? Meaning if my liege forcibly changes my contract using a hook, but my spymaster discovers a hook against him the next day, how long do I have to wait before I renegotiate the contract?
 
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Jorlem

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You will be informed of the change to your contract and deal with it ;) The AI won't do too many changes at once though and of course if you really dislike it you can rebel to be free of it all.
As a player who is a vassal, is it possible to make a counteroffer, or will the "negotiation" when the player is a vassal just be a decree from on high? For example, could I offer to pay more taxes or provide more levies to remove the Forced Partition from the contract?
 
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TheDarkMaster

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I'm worried about the two-way negotiation system. Since you can only move taxes or levies one step at a time, can't the vassal/liege permanently lock the taxes or levy level at once step? Say as a liege the only thing I care about from one vassal is taxes. Can't every time I increase the tax level, the vassal then counter change the tax level back down? There could be endless swapping of tax and levy levels, if both sides want the opposite.

I'm hoping we get some ways around how often the contracts can be changed. One idea I had was concessions, which allows the vassal or liege to change things by one step in their favor at any time. A minor concession allows for shifting tax or levies one step, a major one allows for shifting both tax and levies or changing one fine print option. Then add in a faction for vassals demanding concessions. If the liege accepts the demands or is forced into a white peace in the civil war, all members get a minor concession. If the liege loses the civil war, the three biggest contributors get a major concession instead of a minor one. If the faction loses the civil war, then the liege gets concessions on their vassals instead. Also, a liege may get a minor concession out of a vassal for releasing them from prison instead of ransoming them. If the prisoner has committed a crime that justifies punishment, then it's a major concession and the vassal is cleared of the crime.

This system would nicely allow for more conflict between liege and vassals over contracts and give ways of forcing what you want even if the other wants the opposite.
 
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pengoyo

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Wouldn't it make more sense to have feudal contracts tied to titles rather than people? This would offer much greater technical flexibility, simply because people can occupy many titles, but titles are never held by more than one person at a time.

For instance, then the King of England could have a contract with the King of France as Duke of Aquitaine without having to jury-rig some special mechanics to make this happen.
The immediate problem I can see with this is what happens when the King of England hands out the Duchy of Aquitane?

If the titles contract is to France then the vassal England gives it to will be a French vassal and not an English vassal. Unless the the title switches lieges when passed out, but then passing the title out removes it from France. Alternatively the King of England could just be forced to directly hold all his French titles. But that is bad for game balance as well as being historically inaccurate.

So you'd need something where each title can have multiple lieges. But if each character having multiple lieges was complicated, each title having multiple lieges just compounds the complexity even more. And then you have to deal with passing out titles, creating and destroying titles, titles conquering new vassals, transferring vassal between titles, revolts, etc.

There are a lot of edge cases just having to deal with England and France that would crop up from this system when doing regular realm management.

Now this all very well might be resolvable, but after all this work what's the benifit? Some potential drama so the King of France can get a few more levies and some more tax money from some English vassals (this is assuming the system even works). It's a lot of work for not much gain. This is not to say I wouldn't love a properly fleshed out multiple liege system. But I also don't fault Paradox for wanting to spend their time on lower hanging fruit that would be more impactful.
 
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Mindel

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If the titles contract is to France then the vassal England gives it to will be a French vassal and not an English vassal.
This is exactly what is supposed to happen.

In fact, it was even proposed as a solution to end the Hundred Years War, that Edward III grant Aquitaine to his third son John of Gaunt (not expected to inherit England), who would swear fealty to the King of France and eventually become a French prince. This would have resolved the underlying legal conflicts that sparked the war in the first place.
 
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This is exactly what is supposed to happen.

In fact, it was even proposed as a solution to end the Hundred Years War, that Edward III grant Aquitaine to his third son John of Gaunt (not expected to inherit England), who would swear fealty to the King of France and eventually become a French prince. This would have resolved the underlying legal conflicts that sparked the war in the first place.
So it would never be worth it (or possible) to conquer land in another de jure kingdom and grant it to your followers, because they'd become vassals of the de jure (not de facto) ruler?

Or to hand off that third or fourth duchy that you've just inherited to your own supporters rather than make another vassal for the de jure king - even if you're the owner of more of that kingdom than the nominal de jure king is - say as k_england you own 45% of France, k_france owns 40%, and k_burgundy owns the other 15%.
 
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Actually Austria became a Duchy after it was a margrave. Only way later they forged the Privilegium Maius to increase themselves to Archduchy. And then it took until
a Hapsburg became Emperor until the forgery was recognized by the Empire and other Rulers.
In the original Privilegium Minus it was stipulated that the now duke of Austria would retain all the rights and privileges it had enjoyed as a margrave in addition to specific ducal privileges. For instance a margrave was allowed to tax the clergy for the defence of the territory, whereas dukes were much more limited to do so (the Emperor had exempted and protected the ecclesiastical rulers from this).
If the would have been raised in an ordinary fashion (given the whole Hohenstaufen, Welf struggle with the Babenbergers in the middle, it wasn’t, but I digress), there was a fear that they would lose these marcher privileges, quite valuable for a border region).
 
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Mindel

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So it would never be worth it (or possible) to conquer land in another de jure kingdom and grant it to your followers, because they'd become vassals of the de jure (not de facto) ruler?

Or to hand off that third or fourth duchy that you've just inherited to your own supporters rather than make another vassal for the de jure king - even if you're the owner of more of that kingdom than the nominal de jure king is - say as k_england you own 45% of France, k_france owns 40%, and k_burgundy owns the other 15%.
Depends on what you mean. If you seized county A from X and hand it out to Y, then you succeeded in making Y the holder of county A. Whether that's worth it to you is something you decide.

Or maybe you don't care who holds county A. What you actually care about is changing the liege title that the county title is vassal to.
 

TheDarkMaster

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The immediate problem I can see with this is what happens when the King of England hands out the Duchy of Aquitane?

If the titles contract is to France then the vassal England gives it to will be a French vassal and not an English vassal. Unless the the title switches lieges when passed out, but then passing the title out removes it from France. Alternatively the King of England could just be forced to directly hold all his French titles. But that is bad for game balance as well as being historically inaccurate.

So you'd need something where each title can have multiple lieges. But if each character having multiple lieges was complicated, each title having multiple lieges just compounds the complexity even more. And then you have to deal with passing out titles, creating and destroying titles, titles conquering new vassals, transferring vassal between titles, revolts, etc.

There are a lot of edge cases just having to deal with England and France that would crop up from this system when doing regular realm management.

Now this all very well might be resolvable, but after all this work what's the benifit? Some potential drama so the King of France can get a few more levies and some more tax money from some English vassals (this is assuming the system even works). It's a lot of work for not much gain. This is not to say I wouldn't love a properly fleshed out multiple liege system. But I also don't fault Paradox for wanting to spend their time on lower hanging fruit that would be more impactful.
I think the way you have to do this is if the only way for a title to be under multiple lieges is through inheritance. That is cases where a ruler who is already in charge of land in one realm, inherits land in another realm. In that case, and only that case, can they end up with vassal contracts to two people. They can only be on the council of their primary title's liege. If a character conquers land, it always ends up under their primary title's realm. If they inherit independent land, it ends up under their primary title's liege. If they want to give out land, it stays with whichever liege that title was previously under, similar to creating another independent ruler like if you're a duke giving away a secondary duchy.

In the event of a war, the land always joins up with the primary title. In the event that either a land claim war is won against one liege, or a specific CB for this purpose is used, the multiple liege structure will be broken.
 

pengoyo

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This is exactly what is supposed to happen.

In fact, it was even proposed as a solution to end the Hundred Years War, that Edward III grant Aquitaine to his third son John of Gaunt (not expected to inherit England), who would swear fealty to the King of France and eventually become a French prince. This would have resolved the underlying legal conflicts that sparked the war in the first place.
But John of Gaunt was appointed duke of Aquitaine by Richard II (John's nephew) and he continued to be treated as a part of the kingdom of England for the rest of John's life. The kings of England multiple times handed the duchy of Aquitaine and Normandy out to other members of the family without the area leaving their control.

Another thing that comes to mind for what you are describing is when Edward II gave the title of Aquitaine to his son Edward III so his son could instead pay homage to the king of France. But due to some other drama, that didn't resolve the conflict, but sparked war. But I don't think Edward III going to pay homage to the French King was viewed as meaning he would no longer be under his father's rule.



I think the way you have to do this is if the only way for a title to be under multiple lieges is through inheritance. That is cases where a ruler who is already in charge of land in one realm, inherits land in another realm. In that case, and only that case, can they end up with vassal contracts to two people. They can only be on the council of their primary title's liege. If a character conquers land, it always ends up under their primary title's realm. If they inherit independent land, it ends up under their primary title's liege. If they want to give out land, it stays with whichever liege that title was previously under, similar to creating another independent ruler like if you're a duke giving away a secondary duchy.

In the event of a war, the land always joins up with the primary title. In the event that either a land claim war is won against one liege, or a specific CB for this purpose is used, the multiple liege structure will be broken.
This doesn't cover the often requested Normandy question as that was cause by conquest not direct inheritance.

But there are still weird problems that can crop up when a title has multiple lieges even if limited to inheritance. If a title keeps being inherited between different realms it could end up with a lot of different lieges. What mechanisms are there for removing lieges from a title? What determines who the primary liege of a title is and can that change? Can I freely switch my primary title to change which title titles I gain through inheritance, conquests, and creatation go to? If I can, then I can probably siphon titlse from one lord to another if I want to. If I can't then the player's agency is being limited which probably would hurt roleplaying. What happens when the same character is the holder of the two tile your title is a vassal to, do you keep the two sets of contract? If you don't keep both which do you keep (remember the two contracts might be both to non-primary lieges)? Does this happen at all levels, is the bordergore of inheritance inside a realm also part of a web of vassal contracts? How do you show concisely show this mess of contracts to the player, especially when you can get circular vassalage where two rulers are both lieges and vassals to the other? And what is being gained by all of this, just some siphoning of levies and tax money?

Now this is not to say you are wrong or your suggestion is at all bad (I honestly don't really know the best way to resolve this). I personally feel you are right that a more limited approach is the most likely way to see multiple lieges in CK3. But given how big a can of worms multiple lieges is, I think there are a lot of questions that will still need to be answered even when limiting the scope. And any proposal will have to try to limit the potential problems without limiting the potential benefits.
 
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IanReSc

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Lets say a vassal had an untimely accident, would their successor inherit the contract or would I have to negiotiate from the beginning?