CK3 Dev Diary #33 - An Offer You Can’t Refuse

CK3 Dev Diary #33 - An Offer You Can’t Refuse

  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

BrotherJonathan

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I'm one of the people who wasn't really that impressed by the original Contract system; it seemed way too similar to the Laws system from CKII. This, however, looks much more fleshed-out and distinct. Impressive and exciting.
 
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Woifee

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could you maybe add a royal marriage agreement? agreeing to let your vassal or his heir marry one of your daughters/sisters should count as a favor.
A noble Hooker instead a hook ;)

I love the Idea.
 
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Alenarae118

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A noble Hooker instead a hook ;)

I love the Idea.
Ah yes, being able to set up a right for a royal marriage agreement would be cool
 
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LeSingeAffame

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If one of my vassals rebels against me, will i be able to force changes in their feudal contract as a punishment for their war without incurring tyranny?.
I guess defeating a rebelling vassals gives you a hook on them
 
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blackninja9939

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Wouldn't it make more sense to have feudal contracts tied to titles rather than people? This would offer much greater technical flexibility, simply because people can occupy many titles, but titles are never held by more than one person at a time.

For instance, then the King of England could have a contract with the King of France as Duke of Aquitaine without having to jury-rig some special mechanics to make this happen.
I'd disagree it offers more technical flexibility, it'd offer more technical confusion and nightmarish rule managing scenarios. And what you really are asking for here is multiple lieges and independent people partially being vassals, which is a whole other can of worms that would be a technical, user experience, and design nightmare for in my opinion pretty limited gain.

While it does look pretty and helps immersion a lot, I can't help feeling a bit nervous about scalability when I see lovingly crafted interfaces like this.

So... will it support scrollbars if, for example, a mod decides to add 20 more checkboxes? n_n
Currently the interface just gets bigger but mods can easily add a scroll bar to it if they so want, our gui files are fully moddable, I'd argue if you've added so many options you need a scroll bar then you've probably added way too many options though and are gonna make the micro annoying and balance a bit dodgy.

Is the opinion penalty from high obligations permanent? The temporary penalty in CK2 Conclave is more or less the only major thing I don't like with it. It doesn't make much sense to go "Mhh, maybe these high taxes aren't so bad after all" after 5 years. And over time you can raise obligations very high without any consequences. It's much better if you can push for high taxes and high levies, but they will really hate you for it.
As far as I remember yes, the penalty is permanent for the passive opinion from obligation levels.

This looks wonderful, very exciting!

If a liege and a vassal have different cultures, and therefore access to different fine print options through different innovations, which ruler's culture determines what options are available?
They are taken from the liege.
 
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Faerillis

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Any hope for a Cultural option similar to the Religious one. Something minor that makes it so the vassal is not effected by events or pressures to adjust their culture and might even get to keep their Cultural titles? I know that keeping multicultural titles in your realm is a small thing but something I have always wanted.

Also will setting a contract to being a March or Palatine effect the vassals title (ie will it make a Duke a Margrave or a Count a Count Palatine)?
 
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Ruwaard

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@Faerillis: going from a duke to a margrave is a demotion. Now if a count would get a march contract, then it IMHO should become a margrave. An example of a duchy with march contract would be Austria, before it became an archduchy (promotion to palatinate contract).
 
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Mindel

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what you really are asking for here is multiple lieges and independent people partially being vassals,
This is my point. It is something that the current system can't handle at all, yet it models the historical dynamics between titles more accurately. This constraint makes it hard to represent important cases like the tensions between the King of England and the King of France in the game without resorting to some kind of jury-rigging.

I am not asking for widespread multi-liege complexity. Most characters in the game own one or two counties, and both will be under the same liege anyway. In practice, multi-liege situations would be uncommon but exist in critical instances, such as a vassal duke conquering a foreign kingdom. A lord caught between two lieges (i.e. France and HRE) going to war with each other isn't some artificial product of a cumbersome system; it's a real thing that actually happened.

How do you plan to handle the England/France fealty issue, anyway?
 
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Just a random question, so how are high end vassals like Bohemia within HRE represented? A contract with little obligation and defacto all bonuses?
IMHO Bohemia like the stem duchies (Saxony, Franconia, Bavaria and Swabia, later extended with Upper Lorraine, Lower Lorraine and Carinthia) should probably have a palatinate contract. Once Bohemia becomes a king within the HRE, it should get some extra privileges, only available to a vassal kingdom.
IMHO like in CK II a fully independent kingdom, should be able to set certain laws, which for a vassal kingdom are set by the empire.
 
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blackninja9939

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This is my point. It is something that the current system can't handle at all, yet it models the historical dynamics between titles more accurately. This constraint makes it hard to represent important cases like the tensions between the King of England and the King of France in the game without resorting to some kind of jury-rigging.

I am not asking for widespread multi-liege complexity. Most characters in the game own one or two counties, and both will be under the same liege anyway. In practice, multi-liege situations would be uncommon but exist in critical instances, such as a vassal duke conquering a foreign kingdom. A lord caught between two lieges (i.e. France and HRE) going to war with each other isn't some artificial product of a cumbersome system; it's a real thing that actually happened.

How do you plan to handle the England/France fealty issue, anyway?
The England/France situation is handled as in CK2 with the split between de jure and de facto titles and England being independent and de facto owning Normany but Normandy being de jure land under France.

In your system it doesn't matter if it wold be a rare occurrence, it would still need code to handle it, and that code would be very complex and be hard to present in the UI and design all the edge case handling. All of which would be for very little benefit to the simulation as even you acknowledge its a very rare thing. So putting in months upon months upon months of design, UI and code work into it is not a good use of time and would most likely come out with something incredibly impractical anyway.
 
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Mindel

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All of which would be for very little benefit to the simulation as even you acknowledge its a very rare thing.
Uncommon but critical. The cases where it happens would be a perfect example of mechanics-generated political/character events: disputes over liege homage, being caught between two warring lieges, etc.

But I understand. You guys have been following the model of CK2 very closely, and don't want to redesign the engine from scratch. I have reservations about how well a character-based vassalage system models medieval history, and had hoped for a more ambitious design in CK3. But that's too much to hope for at this point; the resources have already been invested into implementing the framework from CK2 and things are set to ship on Sept 1.
 
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I'm really happy to see another improvement over CKII, especially the fact that religious affiliation of the vassal can be protected by the contract itself on a singular basis.
 
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classicist

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VERY nice, developers!
 
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The ability to negotiate and change a feudal contract with different vassals is a very welcome addition to the game. The extra options are very nice and I can only imagine the modding potential for this. To be honest so far this is a top 3 change in CK3 for me along with the religious system and trait system.
 
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DeceitfulCake

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They are taken from the liege.
Thanks for the answer! That definitely makes the most sense from a player perspective and a design architecture one I guess. Is this hard coded or is it possible to alter?

I have the same question about newly conquered vassals reverting to a 'default' contract -- would the architecture allow for changing it so that new vassals keep as a default the contract they had with their previous liege (or a decayed one, where they keep their privileges, but go one step lower on levies and taxes)?

The system presented looks amazing and looks like it's the best fit for the game out of the box. But the particularly exciting thing is how flexible it could be (modders are definitely going to spend ages tinkering around with this), so it would be wonderful to have more options available to mod the structure of how they work, as well as adding new privileges/restrictions etc.

The England/France situation is handled as in CK2 with the split between de jure and de facto titles and England being independent and de facto owning Normany but Normandy being de jure land under France.

In your system it doesn't matter if it wold be a rare occurrence, it would still need code to handle it, and that code would be very complex and be hard to present in the UI and design all the edge case handling. All of which would be for very little benefit to the simulation as even you acknowledge its a very rare thing. So putting in months upon months upon months of design, UI and code work into it is not a good use of time and would most likely come out with something incredibly impractical anyway.
This sounds like the right way to go about it. I wonder though if there are still ways to model this kind of situation in a bit more detail without going to the extreme that people are proposing of restructuring the whole game to cater to a rare occurrence.

Might it be possible for the kingdoms to be independent the in way the system currently works, but for the nominal liege to retain some kind of leverage over the former vassal? Whether that's a type of diplomatic relationship or maybe something that the hook system could encompass. In the simplest form it could just be modifiers and events. Like, the King of France regards the King of England as a breakaway vassal, and can periodically demand tribute/levies or try to call them to war, which England can always refuse, at the cost of an opinion malus and maybe France getting a CB on them. Something like this could also work for de jure vassals that are basically independent and act autonomously like Burgundy. Basically the idea would be that they are independent, separate kingdoms but, whether through events or hooks, the nominal liege can still try to treat them like vassals, without the ability to enforce it if they refuse. Maybe that's still too complicated for too little gain, I dunno.
 
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Willem IV

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Cats do love their humans. it's just that it comes out differently in cats than it does with dogs. Dogs had already evolved to be social creatures, just like humans, so it was easy for them to show love to their humans.

Cats evolved to be solitary hunters. In fact, most wild cats will only tolerate other cats in their habitat for only two reasons: Mating, and rearing their young.

So, as I've already said, love, and trust, come out differently in cats than it does with dogs...
Cats are the only animals that do things for their human friend, without expecting a reward. I mean are we really happy when they provide us an dead mouse indoors? The only reason they do, is the fact that they care about their employees.
 
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