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Katana500

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Is there a reason a ruler can only hire one holy order at a time?

Both Templars and Hospitallers fought alongside each other in some battles in the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

While in Iberia by 1400, The Iberian Kingdoms had atleast 8 seperate military orders.
  1. Order of Montesa
  2. Order of Santiago
  3. Order of Calatrava
  4. Order of Saint John (Castile)
  5. Order of Alcántara
  6. Order of Sant'Iago da Espada
  7. Order of Aviz
  8. Order of Saint John (Portugal)

 
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Is there a reason a ruler can only hire one holy order at a time?

Both Templars and Hospitallers fought alongside each other in some battles in the Kingdom of Jerusalem.

While in Iberia by 1400, The Iberian Kingdoms had atleast 8 seperate military orders.
  1. Order of Montesa
  2. Order of Santiago
  3. Order of Calatrava
  4. Order of Saint John (Castile)
  5. Order of Alcántara
  6. Order of Sant'Iago da Espada
  7. Order of Aviz
  8. Order of Saint John (Portugal)

Balance one would assume.
 

Will Steel

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Will holy orders migrate if driven out of their lands rather than instant destruction? Especially if they still have an intact army and gold?

There are some historical examples - the Teutonic Order abandoned Jerusalem for Prussia before the final Crusades even came to an end. Hospitallers had a long island-hopping run across Mediterranean until Napoleon ended them. And the Templars established themselves in France and Europe after losing the Crusades, until they were destroyed by the French king himself, which seems possible in the game now.
 
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Much like in CK2 you will be able to hire Holy Orders to help you out in religious wars, but unlike in CK2 they will fight all enemies once hired.
I'm going to echo a lot of people when I say this sounds pretty overpowered, especially for the order's patrons. I'm curious how it plays in testing because it seems very abusable. Maybe they should only help in wars against your own faith if they're defensive? It makes more sense e.g. you're attacking heathens with your own army so the holy order agrees to defend your land from an encroaching neighbor, regardless if they're of the same faith. I don't really see the roleplay focus of this game holding up if you can declare a holy war but then send the Hospitallers off to press a fabricated claim instead. Why would the Grandmaster be cool with that?

Aside from ordinary levies a Holy Order also has a number of MaA regiments that are special for Holy Orders
Super excited to see what all of these are for the various religions, although I wish they were Faith-specific.

You can only ever hire a single Holy Order
ou can only create one Holy Order, but you can still end up being the patron of several, for example by taking over land where a Holy Order of your faith has their Headquarters.
Given that you can only ever hire one at once, and that all of them will have the exact same kind of MaA, why would you ever want more than one in your realm? It seems like twice the amount of people asking you for holdings/children for no extra gain. Seems like you should just kick one out and give all their lands to the other if that's the case.

After founding a Holy Order you might see some events, much like in Ck2, where the order can gain more Holdings in many Realms. And yes, these events do often involve loans and threats of godly wrath.
The Holy Order can also try to expand their forces if they spy a fitting candidate.
I am really excited about the amount of roleplaying and events you guys are putting on display. That is easily my favorite part of CK so I'm glad you're really leaning into making sure every character feels like a real person.
 

Katana500

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Balance one would assume.
ah thats a shame. CK2 had both Jerusalem and Castille with 2 holy orders each in some start dates.

Historically the large number of holy orders greatly helped the Iberian Kingdoms win the Reconquista. Personally I would find it fun dealing with a historical issue the King's of Castille had which was handing out large territories awarded to the numerous military orders in the South. Could just make the Spanish Military orders contribute around 500-1500 men each. Meaning that all together they would contribute around 10000. Enought to effect the reconquista like they did historically but not enough to be ridiculous. With the drawback of having multiple grandmasters competing for baronies and gold.
 

TheDarkMaster

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Can religious heads also found holy orders or disband them? Such a system would be a good fit for stuff like the Knights Templar, which were founded by the Papacy, but later were disbanded by the Papacy after investigations about corruption.
 

Leivve

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So just a question, in your test games how likely is it for "independent" holy orders like the Teutonic Knights of real life? Can we reliably expect at least one order to actually be an actual power on the board; be it Templar in finding themselves in Tunis, or the Teutons in the Baltic? Or are they at the moment of release relegated to support like they are in CK2 for the most part?
 

Dlin369

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Will hireable holy order strength scale with the power/land the holy order has? Or perhaps holy orders spawn more mercenary companies the more powerful they grow (kinda like the new mercenary system and culture?)
 

Pancakelord

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However, we all know that Holy Orders also have a secondary function: to stash your worthless fourth son somewhere where he can’t cause any trouble. You can ask almost all your courtiers to take vows, and depending on your gender doctrines, and the existence of a Holy Order in your faith, they will either be sent to fight for your faith or to become part of the clergy.
Can we absolve characters of their vows (e.g. if we are an emperor/king/patron of the order or have a hook on the grand master) in special cases?

e.g. to use that above example, as I like hypotheticals, If I was king and my eldest 3 sons all died - due to plague etc - and I wanted my 4th Son, in the order, to be my heir:
  • Would the 4th son's vows preclude him from inheriting/becoming the next king?
  • If I, as king, died with my 4th son (and last legitimate blood descendant, for simplicity's sake) stuck in an order, would it be game over for me?
  • Or would the game still let me play on as Son #4 after kingy dies, instantly making Son#4 the new King.
If the vows do preclude Son#4 from inheriting - is there any way I can get him out of the order and back in line for the throne?
  • Can I bribe/blackmail the Grand master in to getting the boy out?
  • Or get a letter from the pope granting him leave from the order? (or your local religious equivalent - Archbishop etc - if applicable)
  • Or is my only recourse to dissolve the entire order and drag Son#4 back to my court?
 
Last edited:

Bovrick

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I should probably wait until we have concrete details on what Fervor actually is, but it seems to me that a potential compromise between Ck2 and CK3 rules could be made.

Military Orders should have an opinion over who they're willing to fight based on their Religion's Fervor and Tolerance. High Fervor should be very resistant to fighting same/tolerated faith, but very pro fighting heretics and infidels: Low Fervor would make an Order more ambivalent towards the extremes. Maybe this could alter Piety costs (and even let orders slip towards Mercenary behaviours by accepting Gold for compensation). Similar effects could come from Doctrines.

This in turn translates your actions into a relationship with the Grandmaster. Using Military Orders in ways they dislike should push them towards abandoning you. This way you might be able to get away with a few fights against the Faithful, especially if you aren't instigating them, but you're liable to have an acrimonious breakup, potentially at a really bad time.
 

Arona

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Opinion. Historical or holyorders without a liege should only be allowed to fight with religions enemys

But patronized or vassalised holyorders should also fight for they liege and for anyone who liege allows. Would be actually cool. If King can makrk someof for they allys so patronized HO could be hired also from allys and mark someone for enemys so anyone can hire HO against them.
 

Danir

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I mean, loans weren't a thing in CKII so that would be a new feature. ;)
Loans were a thing in Ck2 although the events which came with them were, at least in my experience, a bit uncommon. It was, however, certainly no complex system.
 

Revshawn

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ah thats a shame. CK2 had both Jerusalem and Castille with 2 holy orders each in some start dates.

Historically the large number of holy orders greatly helped the Iberian Kingdoms win the Reconquista. Personally I would find it fun dealing with a historical issue the King's of Castille had which was handing out large territories awarded to the numerous military orders in the South. Could just make the Spanish Military orders contribute around 500-1500 men each. Meaning that all together they would contribute around 10000. Enought to effect the reconquista like they did historically but not enough to be ridiculous. With the drawback of having multiple grandmasters competing for baronies and gold.
If you had twenty holy orders in a small space like that where you had control over all of them you'd have the equivalent of what would happen if Mordor's orcs were Christians.
 
Last edited:

thebobafettest

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Using Orders against coreligionists needs to be balanced. I would say either they should only be able to be used in defensive wars, or there should be a penalty, say a loss of piety after battles, or an opinion knock with coreligionists. I suppose if you had a 'sinful grandmaster' modifier where mundane matters have taken preeminence ala a 'black pope' in CK2 that would also work.
 
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Can we absolve characters of their vows (e.g. if we are an emperor/king/patron of the order or have a hook on the grand master) in special cases?

e.g. to use that above example, as I like hypotheticals, If I was king and my eldest 3 sons all died - due to plague etc - and I wanted my 4th Son, in the order, to be my heir:
  • Would the 4th son's vows preclude him from inheriting/becoming the next king?
  • If I, as king, died with my 4th son (and last legitimate blood descendant, for simplicity's sake) stuck in an order, would it be game over for me?
  • Or would the game still let me play on as Son #4 after kingy dies, instantly making Son#4 the new King.
If the vows do preclude Son#4 from inheriting - is there any way I can get him out of the order and back in line for the throne?
  • Can I bribe/blackmail the Grand master in to getting the boy out?
  • Or get a letter from the pope granting him leave from the order? (or your local religious equivalent - Archbishop etc - if applicable)
  • Or is my only recourse to dissolve the entire order and drag Son#4 back to my court?
I would say a hook on the Pope. Cardinal-King Henry of Portugal tried to get released of his vows to marry and ensure his dynasty survived, but failed in part due to pressures on the Pope.
 

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It sounds like Buddhists and Jains have the same proclivity to make military holy orders as Catholics and Muslims do? Are we sure this is how we want things to be? (I suppose there could be a doctrine or tenet that makes holy orders less available, but we've seen Dharmic Pacifism and it doesn't do anything of the sort.)

For all the different permutations that religions can have in CK3, it seems a bit out of place that holy orders appear to be the same for every religion. I could imagine a number of variations - maybe for some less aggressive religions holy orders would only be formable once infidels have conquered and converted a certain number of provinces, or they could only be raised for defensive wars. To balance things out, those more pacifist/defensive holy orders could have less demanding more rewarding event interactions with their patrons perhaps.
 

orochi2k

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The mighty Holy Order of Peace
When they come to the battlefield, they do not fight, instead, they keep asking enemies to put down their weapons.
With enough efforts, enemies will be so annoyed that they will decide to retreat. :p