This looks like a major improvements over the faction system in CKII. Revolts will actually have personality and be a threat, rather than just annoying "whack-a-mole" events that inevitably pop up every few years.
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CK3 Dev Diary #19: Factions and Civil Wars
- Thread starter Baron von Shoes
- Start date
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Crusader Kings III Available Now!
The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.
Lets say I am a vassal and my liege has a hook on me for some reason or the other. If he tries to use it to stop me from supporting a faction can I choose to ignore the hook under great penalty? I think it would be a fun story to say that you decided the good of the realm was worth the personal cost to you. The excesses of your liege became too much to ignore and you could no longer sit by and decided to do something about it even if it ruined you.
Tune in next week to find out
If a vassal leaving a faction drops it below 80% military power, discontent will stop growing and begin shrinking instead.
Claimants and the faction members who put them on the throne gain mutual opinion bonuses of each other. In addition, all of the faction members will gain a favor hook on their new liege, which the AI often uses to reduce their feudal obligations if possible.
As the ruler of a realm, you are ultimately responsible for the actions of your vassals. If one of your vassals abuses their power and greatly upsets the populace, you face the decision of either being forced to revoke their titles to place someone more competent in charge, or dealing with the inevitable fallout when the populace revolts.
Imprisonment as a way to force an early revolt can be a powerful tool, absolutely. Unjust imprisonments will cause you to gain Tyranny however, so make sure the trade-off is worth it before you do!
You can not join a faction after the rebellion has already begun.
Currently no, you can not ignore the hook just because you really don't want to have it. In general you really want to avoid people getting hooks on you, especially if they are your liege.
It would be pretty simple to mod in a decision that lets you remove a hook in exchange for substantial prestige penalties or something, though.
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The part were you said that if half of Iberia was occupied by Castille and the other by Catholic rebels would create a warscore problem a.k.a stalemate, how about making an event where the Catholic Rebels, and the Castillian leadership see eye to eye "We have a common enemy" and then also understands that "We also share the same faith" so we have to agree on something. The event could present you with two options A: We the Castillians have agreed with the rebels who share our faith to join forces, but we have to concede strict religious laws, and promise X religous acts for the next 10 years.
Or B: We disagree on the way forward, and the meeting ended in hostilities, we are now at war with the Catholic rebels..
These two options could make a dynamic change in how wars operate in certain instances. Option A gives you all catholic rebel occupation score and baronies/provinces, but for a price(The price can rise if the warscore of that said rebel group have a huge participation, raising their demands to concede to your rule). If not, conflict, making division a scary prospect and an oppurtunity to the enemies friends(Other Muslim nations maybe see a chance to save their Iberian muslim brothers. And vice versa for other religions etc)
This looks nice, but I am kinda worried we don't see a larger improvement over what was already there in CK2. The CK2 factions were single-issue rebels that sometimes had no real coherence, and their function was awkwardly given to conclave's councils. Instead, the factions from CK2+ mod (and HIP, AGoT and others) were far more interesting as they were not just simple rebels and they had actual functions.
I was hoping for things like -
- Factions that are based on positions rather than single-issue rebellions. Like the prosperity faction of CK2+ which wants rulers to focus on development of trade and infrastructure (i.e. buildings) or capture trade routes. Or the militarist faction, which wants to launch a large war of conquest. Or the zealot faction. And probably a few more.
- The same factions mentioned above should have the ability to be pleased or annoyed based on player action. If pleased they would reward you, if annoyed their members would start joining actual rebel factions.
- If possible, factions should sometimes give out quests like societies do in CK2. After all, PDS wants to make CK3 more RPG-ish and this would be a perfect opportunity.
- Happy, pleased factions contributing money and resources to liege in times of dangerous invasions, and their members who are also on the council would support your vote. Each faction could also have its own unique reward if they are satisfied for a long time - like a special conquest CB, or a truckload of money, or bonus papal influence and clergy relations and so on.
- Inter-faction management. Like faction members electing their leader instead of basing it on a "first come first serve" where whoever forms faction first becomes leader. Or faction members contributing money to the leader. Or the leader gaining the power to kick out a member from their own faction at the cost of influence and such. This is actually one scenario where mana points would work.
- Debate events and such within factions, where factions can change their claimant/target.
- Factions that have actual influence in councils and their decisions.
- Traits, claims, opinions, attributes etc. being taken into account when deciding which AI character joins which faction. Greedy, kind and diligent would likely go for prosperity faction. Martial education warlords would likely go for militarist faction. Zealots and theologians would probably go for the religious faction and so on.
...And if possible, inter-faction wars.
Now those would look like a real faction rework. And would be very enjoyable to play with.
Also, what about two Clergy themed factions? Keeping the clergy on their side was very important for a lot of medieval rulers, including outside Abrahamic religions. They could be -
A) Clergy faction - If your clergy hates you enough, the landed clergy characters could have their own faction where they rebel for concessions that would vary. They could ask for Papal/Ecclesial primacy, reduction of clerical taxes/levy duty, or forcing the ruler to pay to churches/mosques/temples, forced abdication of a heretic/heathen lord and so on.
B) Heresy/Heathen county faction - Just like peasant rebellions, these would build up in heretic/heathen counties (rather than characters) and seek to rebel with much more powerful forces on their side, with a chance that sympathetic same-faith lords in the realm could join them. Like an upgraded version of CK2's religious revolts, working like small but dangerous wars.
I was hoping for things like -
- Factions that are based on positions rather than single-issue rebellions. Like the prosperity faction of CK2+ which wants rulers to focus on development of trade and infrastructure (i.e. buildings) or capture trade routes. Or the militarist faction, which wants to launch a large war of conquest. Or the zealot faction. And probably a few more.
- The same factions mentioned above should have the ability to be pleased or annoyed based on player action. If pleased they would reward you, if annoyed their members would start joining actual rebel factions.
- If possible, factions should sometimes give out quests like societies do in CK2. After all, PDS wants to make CK3 more RPG-ish and this would be a perfect opportunity.
- Happy, pleased factions contributing money and resources to liege in times of dangerous invasions, and their members who are also on the council would support your vote. Each faction could also have its own unique reward if they are satisfied for a long time - like a special conquest CB, or a truckload of money, or bonus papal influence and clergy relations and so on.
- Inter-faction management. Like faction members electing their leader instead of basing it on a "first come first serve" where whoever forms faction first becomes leader. Or faction members contributing money to the leader. Or the leader gaining the power to kick out a member from their own faction at the cost of influence and such. This is actually one scenario where mana points would work.
- Debate events and such within factions, where factions can change their claimant/target.
- Factions that have actual influence in councils and their decisions.
- Traits, claims, opinions, attributes etc. being taken into account when deciding which AI character joins which faction. Greedy, kind and diligent would likely go for prosperity faction. Martial education warlords would likely go for militarist faction. Zealots and theologians would probably go for the religious faction and so on.
...And if possible, inter-faction wars.
Now those would look like a real faction rework. And would be very enjoyable to play with.
Also, what about two Clergy themed factions? Keeping the clergy on their side was very important for a lot of medieval rulers, including outside Abrahamic religions. They could be -
A) Clergy faction - If your clergy hates you enough, the landed clergy characters could have their own faction where they rebel for concessions that would vary. They could ask for Papal/Ecclesial primacy, reduction of clerical taxes/levy duty, or forcing the ruler to pay to churches/mosques/temples, forced abdication of a heretic/heathen lord and so on.
B) Heresy/Heathen county faction - Just like peasant rebellions, these would build up in heretic/heathen counties (rather than characters) and seek to rebel with much more powerful forces on their side, with a chance that sympathetic same-faith lords in the realm could join them. Like an upgraded version of CK2's religious revolts, working like small but dangerous wars.
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I'm confused. I thought the peasants of one of your vassals would declare their revolt against your vassal? So why would I really care about them? Or do they declare against the top liege?
Yes, you're right thank you, the thing we can't do in ck2 is ally our vassals I believe. Makes me wonder what advantages you get by allying your vassals in ck3 (unless they just mean non-aggression pacts in this dev diary), could add a lot to the game, or nothing noticeable. There was one ck2 mod on the steam workshop where the only way to get your vassals to join you in your wars was if you allied them, which I felt added a lot to the game (although I don't know how historically accurate it is).
Not asking for that same system in ck3 but I really hope that it's difficult to keep a empire together. What the devs have said about the clan government is really promising (vassals will demand marriages into your house) but I just hope there is a good system for the feudal government type (especially because of HRE and ERE).
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Not having rebels in a civil war become their own independent country probably happens precisely to prevent that. So you'd still have to declare war on their nominal liege
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I am sure he is a fan of Lords of Midnight. A pity Mike Singleton left us so early...
The way the Populist rebellion works sounds a lot like a suggestion I made a while ago on how to improve rebellions and factions in CK2. I'm really happy with how that turned out in CK3. Sounds like a way better system.
Also:
yaaay~
Also:
yaaay~
Ah, populist revolts always declare against the top liege. I thought you were talking about them (but I guess you meant the actual peasants).
Peasant rabble declares only against the holder, but if they win your vassal (and indirectly you) will receive reduced tax and levies for a period of time. So you could be charitable and help them out, but there's no real reason you need to.
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Nice slight change and upgrade from CK2, looking forward to it. Just hope realm management is a little more challenging for us players with thousands of hours clocked up. Not sure when it was but you guys seemed to neuter internal strife within realms a good few patches ago. Vassals in Ck3 need to play the marriage game better. I need to be somewhat alarmed when I notice a powerful duke gathering a powerblovk in my realm via marriages.
EDIT: I would also have liked (as others have mentioned) to have seen HIP/CK2+/Stellaris style factions as well as single issue rebellion factions. Prospertiy factions and tradition factions (hate foreign religion/culture advisors/royalty etc.) would add some spice and make your court feel alive with people with positions and politikical opinions.
EDIT: I would also have liked (as others have mentioned) to have seen HIP/CK2+/Stellaris style factions as well as single issue rebellion factions. Prospertiy factions and tradition factions (hate foreign religion/culture advisors/royalty etc.) would add some spice and make your court feel alive with people with positions and politikical opinions.
Could a successful Populist rebellion in a neighboring realm affect the same population in my own realm?
Like say Poland has been split between myself (a ruler of German culture) and another ruler of German culture. A Polish Populist revolt occurs and succeeds in my neighboring realm--do the Polish counties/subjects in my realm now become inspired by seeing a revolt can succeed and become more likely to form a faction/revolt? And would it be possible for the new independent Polish realm to somehow aid the rebels?
Like say Poland has been split between myself (a ruler of German culture) and another ruler of German culture. A Polish Populist revolt occurs and succeeds in my neighboring realm--do the Polish counties/subjects in my realm now become inspired by seeing a revolt can succeed and become more likely to form a faction/revolt? And would it be possible for the new independent Polish realm to somehow aid the rebels?
What's this, 1848?
Joking aside, Populist revolts are tied to county discontent, so if you keep your peasants happy, you shouldn't have to worry much.
I like this idea, obviously stronger factions will want to strike while the iron is hot and weaker ones might only go for it when they figure it's time to s*** or get off the pot, as it were. I do think, however, that having a bar showing you basically exactly when they'll trigger (assuming their relative power doesn't change) feels a little unrealistic, as some others have pointed out.
I would suggest this: once the Discontent bar passes some threshold, say 50%, they gain a small chance to send the ultimatum early. Maybe 5% at first and then building up to like 20% as the bar fills the rest of the way. If they do fire early, however, they have some penalty to represent the fact that they're not quite ready - perhaps some of the members are dragging their feet a bit, or haven't fully sorted out their logistics. This could be a smaller initial number of levies raised, or it takes longer to raise them, or something else.
The goal would be to still give the chance for a "surprise coup" style ultimatum if it fires early but still preserves the idea that once the bar has been filled, the vassals have gotten all their ducks in a row and are making no secret of their intentions to the monarch.
Great change. This always felt so weird to me when looking at the map, and it was very frustrating being spammed with marriage requests from "kings" or "emperors" who were really just upjumped dukes in the middle of a squabble over crown authority.
I like the additional concessions thrown in if the vassals are forced to fight as opposed to the ruler appeasing them. It does make me wish similar mechanics were implemented in external wars - if someone declares war on you and is soundly beaten, I've always felt you should be able to extract some sort of extra concessions from them, be it gold, a hook, or maybe even holdings if you are the de jure ruler of lands they own.
Fantastic! It seems this will be true for Populist revolts as well and feels way more historical than CK2's independence factions.
This is a great change. Revolt risk in CK2 is one of my least favorite mechanics so I like implementing a direct opinion score for the populace. It will also allow a kind and benevolent ruler (of the right culture and religion of course) to truly be beloved by the people and not just popular with the elite.
Is there any kind of bonus for ruling over a county that absolutely loves you? If feels like there should be productivity bonuses for counties in your domain with sky-high opinion scores.
Oh man I cannot wait to help support cultural revolts from within the HRE.
This is a great mechanic. A single band of marauding peasants isn't much to worry about, but once it starts to cascade, you've got a serious problem on your hands.
Love the way hooks are implemented across the board. As long as they aren't too easy to come by (which it doesn't seem like from the impression I've gotten) they feel really powerful and fun for roleplay. It is often frustrating how little I feel like I can influence my vassals to stay out of factions, so I appreciate the ability to hold a favor (or misdeed) over their heads to keep them in line.
Having vassals with high opinion in factions supporting another claimant is one of my least favorite things in CK2. My typical vassal management strategy is to have fewer, more powerful vassals who I work hard to keep on-side, so it's very frustrating and frankly RP-breaking when a duke I've made bribed, made my seneschal, and sent my chancellor to improve relations with still joins a faction supporting a rival claimant.
Yea the same. I was hoping for factions like that. One of the things I really like about HIP and CK2+ is that the factions feel more organic about what should be the policy for the kingdom and that some factions can serve the ruler while others may oppose them.This looks nice, but I am kinda worried we don't see a larger improvement over what was already there in CK2. The CK2 factions were single-issue rebels that sometimes had no real coherence, and their function was awkwardly given to conclave's councils. Instead, the factions from CK2+ mod (and HIP, AGoT and others) were far more interesting as they were not just simple rebels and they had actual functions.
I was hoping for things like -
- Factions that are based on positions rather than single-issue rebellions. Like the prosperity faction of CK2+ which wants rulers to focus on development of trade and infrastructure (i.e. buildings) or capture trade routes. Or the militarist faction, which wants to launch a large war of conquest. Or the zealot faction. And probably a few more.
- The same factions mentioned above should have the ability to be pleased or annoyed based on player action. If pleased they would reward you, if annoyed their members would start joining actual rebel factions.
- Happy, pleased factions contributing money and resources to liege in times of dangerous invasions, and their members who are also on the council would support your vote. Each faction could also have its own unique reward if they are satisfied for a long time - like a special conquest CB, or a truckload of money, or bonus papal influence and clergy relations and so on.
- Inter-faction management. Like faction members electing their leader instead of basing it on a "first come first serve" where whoever forms faction first becomes leader. Or faction members contributing money to the leader. Or the leader gaining the power to kick out a member from their own faction at the cost of influence and such. This is actually one scenario where mana points would work.
- Debate events and such within factions, where factions can change their claimant/target.
- Factions that have actual influence in councils and their decisions.
- Traits, claims, opinions, attributes etc. being taken into account when deciding which AI character joins which faction. Greedy, kind and diligent would likely go for prosperity faction. Martial education warlords would likely go for militarist faction. Zealots and theologians would probably go for the religious faction and so on.
...And if possible, inter-faction wars.
Now those would look like a real faction rework. And would be very enjoyable to play with.
Also, what about two Clergy themed factions? Keeping the clergy on their side was very important for a lot of medieval rulers, including outside Abrahamic religions. They could be -
A) Clergy faction - If your clergy hates you enough, the landed clergy characters could have their own faction where they rebel for concessions that would vary. They could ask for Papal/Ecclesial primacy, reduction of clerical taxes/levy duty, or forcing the ruler to pay to churches/mosques/temples, forced abdication of a heretic/heathen lord and so on.
B) Heresy/Heathen county faction - Just like peasant rebellions, these would build up in heretic/heathen counties (rather than characters) and seek to rebel with much more powerful forces on their side, with a chance that sympathetic same-faith lords in the realm could join them. Like an upgraded version of CK2's religious revolts, working like small but dangerous wars.
STOP! COOKIE TIME