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CK3 Dev Diary #18 - Men-at-Arms, Mercenaries and CBs

Hello everyone, and welcome back!

This week we’ll be talking about a lot of additional details surrounding warfare. Just a few bits and pieces that have changed since CK2.

Casus Belli
One thing that is as it ever was, however, is that you need a Casus Belli to go to war, and that CB determines what happens when the war is won (or lost!). The most common ones are for pressing claims, as you’re familiar with from CK2. In different situations there will be a different options, of course, and some are even unlocked in special ways, such as the ones unlocked by perks, as shown off in the Diplomacy Lifestyle dev diary.
Declare war view.PNG


War Declaration Cost
One thing that has changed a little is the fact that different CBs come with different “declaration costs” attached to them. This is usually Prestige or Piety, depending on whether you are starting a war against a fellow believer or someone from another faith. On the other hand, we don’t want to keep you from taking advantage of a great opportunity just because you’re missing 10 Prestige at a crucial moment, so the costs are optional, in a sense.

You can declare a war without paying its cost, at which point you’ll instead pay something bigger, such as a Level of Fame or Devotion.

Levels of Fame/Devotion brings their own benefits, so ideally you want to avoid this, but it’s not as big a problem as - say - truce breaking. It’s not going to cripple your play, just set you back a little bit in exchange for getting to raise your armies and take some new titles while your enemy is weak. This is also one of the ways that Piety and Prestige gain has become more valuable than it was in CK2. You want to use it for more stuff, and it’s always useful to have lying around!

Men-at-Arms
We have talked about armies before, where we talked about the difference between your levies and your Men-at-Arms. Your levies are your unwashed masses, indistinguishable peasants more than willing to die for the few measly pieces of gold you throw their way. Men-at-Arms, on the other hand, are more specialist troops, and the component that gives you more control over precisely how you win your wars. They are in many ways your elite troops, ready to march through mountains and marshes for you.
MaA view.PNG


You have a maximum number of Men-at-Arms regiment slots for your army, and in addition they have an upkeep cost. It’s small when they’re unraised, but the moment you have them stand up to go to war, they’ll demand a lot more pay!

Even though you can max out your MaA slots, there are other ways you can expand your army. Each MaA regiment can be increased a set number of times, to field even more of your deadly warriors. This will naturally increase their maintenance cost as well (both raised and unraised) so think twice before hiring twice as many soldiers!

There are many different types of MaA regiments, and what their type is determines a number of things, such as what terrain they are good at fighting in, and what kind of MaA Regiments they are good at countering, or get countered by. Over time, you may also be able to acquire new types of MaA Regiments. This means that the bulk of armies are likely to be quite different if you start in 867 compared to when you reach the end of the game.
Create MaA view.PNG


MaAs also include siege engines, which is one of the easiest way of speeding up your land grabs. However, siege weapons are almost useless in regular combat, and taking them uses up one of your MaA slots, so it’s a decision that has to be carefully thought through.
MaA siege engine.PNG


In addition to a standard slate of MaA types, different cultures gain access to different unique MaAs. These will vary greatly across the world, but are generally specialised in the conditions of warfare that’s typical for the culture in question.
Camel Riders.PNG


You will also be able to look at battle reports to get an indication of what kind of impact specific types of MaAs have on your battles. This can let you figure out whether your strategies are paying off, or whether it’s finally time to get some Pikemen to counter the Light Cavalry that your rival is always fielding.

So to sum it all up, Men-at-Arms are great for countering specific troop types, adjusting to specific types of terrain, and directly bolstering the number of soldiers in your army! Sometimes, strategising and countering isn’t enough, however, and that’s where Mercenaries come in!

Mercenaries
Mercenaries are familiar to any CK2 player, of course, but they have changed a little now.

First of all, you no longer pay monthly maintenance for them. Instead you pay their cost for three years up front, and then they’re yours for that time to use as you see fit. They’ll stay with you through thick and thin (although mostly the thick of battle).
Mercenary company screenshot 3.PNG


Once the three years are almost up, you’ll receive an alert warning you that the Mercenaries are about to pack up and get on their way! You’ll then have the opportunity to pay them for another three years of service. This also means that they aren't going to betray you the second you go into debt, which I know will sadden a lot of you, but this new system makes it a lot easier to keep track of what you have and don't have during war.

So Mercenaries are an expensive way of doing warfare, but sometimes it’s the only way you’ll survive. However, in order to find a Mercenary Company that fits you in both size and shape, we have a new system for generating them to make sure there's always a wide range to choose from.
Mercenary Hire view 2.PNG


Each culture generates between one and three Mercenary companies depending on the number of counties of that culture, with each additional company being bigger and more expensive than the previous one. They will also pick a county of their culture to keep as their headquarters, and will be available to be hired by anyone within a certain range of that county.

With each culture generating Mercenaries, their names and coats of arms are either picked from a generated list of names specific to their culture so that you can get historical or particularly flavourful companies in there.

On top of everything else, Mercenary companies come with one or more specific Men-at-Arms types, which means that you may want to consider not only which company is the biggest one you can afford, but which is the best suited for the war you’re about to fight.

This should all offer you a lot of varied strategies for how you go about your wars. Is it worth saving up for the CB cost or mercenary-Gold ahead of time? What Men-at-Arms should you be using against your ancestral enemies? Who would win in a fight between the the White Company and the Company of the Hat??

You’ll just have to wait until release to see...
 
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The fact that what you can gain from war is still rigidly limited to your Casus Belli is a gross oversimplification of medieval history that also feels like a really bad missed opportunity. If the rulers of two massive empires went to war, and one utterly conquered the other, and completely occupied it, they wouldn't just settle for taking a single province. That's idiotic.

Medieval rulers frequently conquered land in wars that they didn't actually have a claim on at all, and defenders would often seize land from aggressors if they managed to win, which is something that the current system renders impossible. At the very least, there should be an option to press multiple Casus Belli of different types against an enemy at the same time, like claiming land for yourself, while also pushing your vassal's claim, provided they're compatible and you aren't both trying to claim the same province.

I really hope they change this prior to release or afterwards. It's not an absolute deal breaker for me, but the CB and war system was always one of the weakest points of CK2, which didn't add anything to the game, and which was very arbitrary. Even the devs realised this, since they introduced a wide variety of free province and border CBs with the Jade Dragon DLC. Frankly, the fact that they recognised those issues in CK2, and have now, if anything, taken a step backwards by ignoring them, is beyond infuriating.

I'm happy with the other stuff like mercenaries and men-at-arms, and I also don't mind that pressing CBs costs piety/prestige which it also did in CK2, but sticking with the rigid CK2 CB system for wars is a monumental error in my view.
 
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Do you know what it means for something to be a step back? Something being the same isn't a step of any kind. It's not a step forward for certain. I'm disappointed it wasn't changed somewhat myself, but I'm just confused by people calling it a step back when it's exactly the same.
Well, considering that they recognised a lot of the limitations of the CB system by introducing automatic CBs with the Jade Dragon expansion, I think it can be considered a step back in that they are now content to just ignore it, rather than doing anything to try and improve what is fundamentally a bad system.

Medieval wars were never fought over rigid CBs as is portrayed, and were very opportunistic. People who won defensive wars would frequently claim territory from their aggressors, while those who won aggressive wars would frequently claim additional territory to what had been their main objectives.
 
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Seems pretty similar to CK2, but with a nicer and clearer interface. I like it. War declaration wasn't something that needed to be changed. And paying for mercs up front? Well, I used to be able to make a choice if ai wanted a huge merc company to win a major battle and then disband them and keep on top of my enemy with my regular troops, or have fewer mercs for longer... We don't have thay choice anymore, but that also means I don't have to try and guess how long I want the mercs and how long they would stay with me, etc. Overall I'm neutral on that change.
 
Seems pretty similar to CK2, but with a nicer and clearer interface. I like it. War declaration wasn't something that needed to be changed. And paying for mercs up front? Well, I used to be able to make a choice if ai wanted a huge merc company to win a major battle and then disband them and keep on top of my enemy with my regular troops, or have fewer mercs for longer... We don't have thay choice anymore, but that also means I don't have to try and guess how long I want the mercs and how long they would stay with me, etc. Overall I'm neutral on that change.
It mean you have to plan ahead more with mercenaries as now you pay them 3 years in advance which make the game more strategic.
 
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For other purposes it is probably adequate to just name them as knights. In the military screens they NEED to be called "NOTABLE KNIGHTS" or something for it not to completely break immersion. Knights simply weren't THAT rare. It is a very minimalistic and easy to make change and if anyone disagrees, please elaborate why.

For the rest? I actually think I like it. Well maybe add retinues to be stronger MaA like i saw suggested earlier. Some actual elite force beyond a few named NOTABLE knights would probably add a lot to the game.
 
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I like the UI GFX and I think having mercenary companies tied to culture is an interesting and kind of realistic way of doing it, but the province names need work (as others have pointed out, lots of names are either the wrong variant or lacking the correct grammar) and I still think those 3D portraits look awful when used on the 2D interface.
 
Medieval rulers frequently conquered land in wars that they didn't actually have a claim on at all,

Thats what we call on CK2 (and CK3 pbly) for exemple :

holy war
invasion
border dispute
conquest
etc...

At the very least, there should be an option to press multiple Casus Belli of different types against an enemy at the same time, like claiming land for yourself, while also pushing your vassal's claim, provided they're compatible and you aren't both trying to claim the same province.

you can push multiple casus belli on CK2 already and CK3 probably
 
Does this mean mercenaries will no longer defect? In CK2 when you run out of money, they have a chance to defect to your enemy and ravage your own lands with them.

But in CK3 with the system described in this DD, if we pay the entire cost in advance, mercenaries won't defect if you run out of money? They would just disband 3 years later when their contract ends...it just means you won't be able to hire them again, instead of them going over to the enemy.

Defection was a realistic and historically accurate mechanism, and made use of mercenaries more calculated.

I know this may sound weird, but I like Imperator Rome's mercenary payment system more than any other. There you have to pay mercenaries in a 3-tier payment system -

- the usual hiring cost, when you hire them
- the regular mercenary pay every month based on number of soldiers (going bankrupt means they either disband, sack cities they are stationed in, or defect to the enemy)
- the severance pay, that you have to give them when you disband them
 
Alemanic guard.... does this mean we have broken up the German culture blob? Yesses!
Also, as each company has a headquarters, does it act as a building?
If it's county specific, if someone conquers the county, I imagine that their numbers will shrink, right.

I also believe it would make sense for the owner of the county or his liege to get a discount for hiring the mercenary company
 
Finally a view of the political map mode, the one we will all use 99.99% of the time. Makes me sad for the guys working on making the map look pretty, I still didn't see the CK2 map without political map mode.

But paradox, you tease! Showing us only a tiny glimps of the political map mode! Leaving us thirsting for more.
 
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Finally a view of the political map mode, the one we will all use 99.99% of the time. Makes me sad for the guys working on making the map look pretty, I still didn't see the CK2 map without political map mode.

But paradox, you tease! Showing us only a tiny glimps of the political map mode! Leaving us thirsting for more.
The CK2 political map is pretty useless if you are a vassals since it don't give a good overview over which counties you and the other vassals Control.
 
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The CK2 political map is pretty useless if you are a vassals since it don't give a good overview over which counties you and the other vassals Control.
On the contrary, the thicker lines within the borders of your liege's kingdom/empire indicate his direct vassals. It's only useless as a count/duke under duke/king under king/emperor.
EDIT: That last bit isn't even true, since it will show your immediate liege's direct vassals
 
On the contrary, the thicker lines within the borders of your liege's kingdom/empire indicate his direct vassals. It's only useless as a count/duke under duke/king under king/emperor.
Given you can use something like diplomacy view which make it very clear what counties a vassal Control, I find the political mode to be pretty useless in many cases. It is alot easier to see colors than seeing lines.
 
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All of this sounds pretty neat. I do have a couple questions:

1) It sounds like the intent of MaA is to be the flexible portion of the player's army that we could alter to meet whatever the strategic difficulty is at the time, i.e. mountains, mounted units, etc., so how easy or practical would it be to switch your MaA to prepare for an upcoming war? It seems like it might be costly and lengthy if they behave like retinues but it it's just a gold cost and then BOOM they're there then it might be kind of gamey.

2) To what degree can the player interact with the MaA are they somewhat like mercenary companies where they're headed by an individual or you can set an individual to lead them similar to how merc companies worked (I did see those were cut) or perhaps assign one of your knights to lead them? I always liked the idea in CK2 of having someone "lead" the retinue even just from an RP standpoint.

3) I know Knights weren't technically the subject of this dev diary but since it's based on warfare I'd like to know exactly how these systems play out in a real war scenario. Do knights lead armies like generals and just get extra bonuses? Do they function like a troop somehow and if so how do they move from army to army? I think you responded that MaA just raise up like regular troops do so are they tied to a particular location or do they just appear in the capital province similar to how retinues worked when initially raised?

Overall I'm really liking the new direction of CK3. There's a few features I'll miss but overall I think it's going to be a vast improvement.
 
1) It sounds like the intent of MaA is to be the flexible portion of the player's army that we could alter to meet whatever the strategic difficulty is at the time, i.e. mountains, mounted units, etc., so how easy or practical would it be to switch your MaA to prepare for an upcoming war? It seems like it might be costly and lengthy if they behave like retinues but it it's just a gold cost and then BOOM they're there then it might be kind of gamey.
From what I can tell, they are extremely expensive, so they are a long term investment which you probably wont want to change for a long while.

2) To what degree can the player interact with the MaA are they somewhat like mercenary companies where they're headed by an individual or you can set an individual to lead them similar to how merc companies worked (I did see those were cut) or perhaps assign one of your knights to lead them? I always liked the idea in CK2 of having someone "lead" the retinue even just from an RP standpoint.
They work the same as CK2 levy from what I can tell. They are not lead by a character.

3) I know Knights weren't technically the subject of this dev diary but since it's based on warfare I'd like to know exactly how these systems play out in a real war scenario. Do knights lead armies like generals and just get extra bonuses? Do they function like a troop somehow and if so how do they move from army to army? I think you responded that MaA just raise up like regular troops do so are they tied to a particular location or do they just appear in the capital province similar to how retinues worked when initially raised?
Knights are characters who fight in battle, but they don't lead armies as that is what commanders do.
 
How will the game avoid mercenary companies from being based in distant or under-developed counties? Should mercenary companies often choose more developed counties as realistically they would offer venues to spend money that has been earned via payment?

Also, having mercenary companies stationed in a county should give a small bonus to taxes to simulate their spending.
 
The CK2 political map is pretty useless if you are a vassals since it don't give a good overview over which counties you and the other vassals Control.
I did say 99.99% of the time. Because the 0.01% of the time you aren't the boss. At least in CK2? It's incredibly easy to go from the lowest to the highest. Then conquer the known world.
 
I did say 99.99% of the time. Because the 0.01% of the time you aren't the boss. At least in CK2? It's incredibly easy to go from the lowest to the highest.
Depend if you want to. The game is most interesting to play as a weak vassal.

Then conquer the known world.
I have zero interest in such things, it is just boring.
 
You're right there, the only thing stopping you from conquering everything is getting bored.

I'm honestly not sure how many people stay in a low position for long... I watch a ton of lets plays and everyone goes for the highest position they can or end up there pretty fast. I honestly wish paradox tracked which map modes are used the most often and released stats because that'd be interesting to see.