CK3 Dev Diary #18 - Men-at-Arms, Mercenaries and CBs

CK3 Dev Diary #18 - Men-at-Arms, Mercenaries and CBs

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The CK2 political map is pretty useless if you are a vassals since it don't give a good overview over which counties you and the other vassals Control.
I hope you do realise that if you use ctrl+lmb you can see the direct vassals of whatever realm you click on, and do it again to break down each vassal into its components.
 

Zhetone

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I hope you do realise that if you use ctrl+lmb you can see the direct vassals of whatever realm you click on, and do it again to break down each vassal into its components.
to be fair denkt has said he didn't play a lot of ck2 and that was a feature added somewhat late in the game's life (don't remember which expansion/patch added it though)
 

Denkt

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to be fair denkt has said he didn't play a lot of ck2 and that was a feature added somewhat late in the game's life (don't remember which expansion/patch added it though)
I have played CK2 less than a hundred hours.
 

Basterbane

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They also don't like the hundreds that die in them even if you win the war. Honestly they probably couldn't care less if you win or lose. Most the time it doesn't change much.

Maybe raising peasant levies should also be raising unrest.
That is a cool idea. Rising levies could affect how much income a province gives you. Over time you get less and less tax from the people since most of the workforce is off fighting in a war rather than plow the fields.
Loosing peasants in battle would then lead to slight boost in revolt risk - or in CK3 terms loosing control of the province since new people migrate, come of age and they haven't really been up to date on who's the boss here.
 

Denkt

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That is a cool idea. Rising levies could affect how much income a province gives you. Over time you get less and less tax from the people since most of the workforce is off fighting in a war rather than plow the fields.
Loosing peasants in battle would then lead to slight boost in revolt risk - or in CK3 terms loosing control of the province since new people migrate, come of age and they haven't really been up to date on who's the boss here.
Is it that realistic? The levy seems to be just a few hundred per barony and the levy of the holy roman Emperor in the screenshot is like 6 000 which is not much. If the Holy Roman Empire have a population of 6 000 000 the levy would just be 1/1000 of the population or 0.1%, it is not that much.

However as a game mechanic it would add an interesting risk or cost to using your levy.
 

stevencrouch

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Just wondering in CK2 if you declare war and the leader of the opposing side dies it ends the war, will this be removed in CK3, really annoying when your on the verge of winning, get into a battle with there leader and they then die which suddenly ends the war or can there be an option if you pressing a claim for someone else to either end the war or fabricate a claim for yourself and continue the war.
 
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TheDarkMaster

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Just wondering in CK2 if you declare war and the leader of the opposing side dies it ends the war, will this be removed in CK3, really annoying when your on the verge of winning, get into a battle with there leader and they then die which suddenly ends the war or can there be an option if you pressing a claim for someone else to either end the war or fabricate a claim for yourself and continue the war.
"Your great holy war has become invalid. The king died in battle against you and his realms were split on succession. His primary heir no longer controls the target."
 

Jaang

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The retinue system combined with the levy system makes far, far more sense than having this half-assed "unwashed masses" nonsense combined with what is essentially a retinue system. You can't tell me this is how feudalism works!

As far as I can tell, that's exactly how fuedalism worked.


A few highly-trained elite knights, followed by a small amount of well-drilled professional troops, pushing along a mass of peasant scum with farm implements in front of them as the bulk of thier force.
 

LordofLight

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Yeah uh... it's typically a better idea to just conscript people into an army and deal with local problems or war.

Instead of having a massive standing army. Thus paying all of them, training all of them, all the upkeep associated with it. And worst of all they aren't being productive. So not only do you lose money directly, you lose money indirectly by them not working and making money.

Many Barons would have a tiny retinue, with them just conscripting people to deal with local problems then letting them get back to farming. They [barons/nobility] don't exactly want to go bankrupt from standing armies who do absolutely nothing useful for the most part.

Conscripting a bunch of peasants is an easy way to beef up your numbers cheaply.
 

Denkt

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No army ever fielded peasants, that's another dark age myth. unarmed civilians are only going to stand in the way in a battle.
Peasants in Sweden was not unarmed or neither the people of lowest social class and the Scandinavian countries did have some sort of conscription system and these people was expected to own stuff like a spear, shield, bow/crossbow with 36 Arrows and a helm if I'm not wrong. That is what I suspect levies represent, not people armed with a pitchfork. I think these trained maybe 1 month or so per year, making them maybe more comparable to modern conscripts.
 

LordofLight

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unarmed civilians
I'm not aware of any lord sending unarmed civilians anywhere to die in their armies. Not only is this stupid, as you are just wasting manpower that could be productive farming etc. But its ineffective on the battlefield and reflects badly on you as a noble.

Often in England used as Spearmen and bowmen...

I didn't think this has to be said but nobles at times provided the equipment they thought necessary for their peasant levy. But this depends on the region of the world, of course, like mentioned with Peasants in Sweden.

EDIT:
Basic google foo
"By the 11th century, much of the infantry fighting was conducted by high-ranking nobles, middle-class freemen and peasants, who were expected to have a certain standard of equipment, often including helmet, spear, shield and secondary weapons in the form of an axe, long knife or sword. Peasants were also used for the role of archers and skirmishers, providing missile cover for the heavy infantry and cavalry. "
 

TheDarkMaster

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I'm not aware of any lord sending unarmed civilians anywhere to die in their armies. Not only is this stupid, as you are just wasting manpower that could be productive farming etc. But its ineffective on the battlefield and reflects badly on you as a noble.

Often in England used as Spearmen and bowmen...

I didn't think this has to be said but nobles at times provided the equipment they thought necessary for their peasant levy. But this depends on the region of the world, of course, like mentioned with Peasants in Sweden.

EDIT:
Basic google foo
"By the 11th century, much of the infantry fighting was conducted by high-ranking nobles, middle-class freemen and peasants, who were expected to have a certain standard of equipment, often including helmet, spear, shield and secondary weapons in the form of an axe, long knife or sword. Peasants were also used for the role of archers and skirmishers, providing missile cover for the heavy infantry and cavalry. "
The levies in the game basically replace light infantry and skirmishers. They'll have gambisons, helmets, improvised polearms, hand-me-down swords, and bows as these are relatively easy for peasants to get their hands on. They aren't unarmed and unarmored peasants.
 
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As far as I can tell, that's exactly how fuedalism worked.


A few highly-trained elite knights, followed by a small amount of well-drilled professional troops, pushing along a mass of peasant scum with farm implements in front of them as the bulk of thier force.
In Anglo-Saxon England the "mass of peasant scum with farm implements" (the Fyrd) was salaried with 20 shillings for their two month service. In comparison, the yearly income of the minimum gentry (thegn) estate was 100 shillings a year. Quite a good salary for underequipped peasant, no?

No army ever fielded peasants, that's another dark age myth. unarmed civilians are only going to stand in the way in a battle.
Peasants were widely used, and in some Northern European countries free peasants were required to be armed by law.

The levies in the game basically replace light infantry and skirmishers. They'll have gambisons, helmets, improvised polearms, hand-me-down swords, and bows as these are relatively easy for peasants to get their hands on. They aren't unarmed and unarmored peasants.
I don't get why it has to be "improvised polearms" rather than just polearms? Swords were, somewhat surprisingly, not necessarily very expensive either in munition grades: in 14th century (England?) you could get one for six pence (or half a shilling) about the same those days as two day's salary for an archer.

 
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viola

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Peasants were widely used, and in some Northern European countries free peasants were required to be armed by law.
Yes, and they were armed.
My point is that the stereotypical image of Medieval armies composed of civilians armed with forks is a myth, conscripted levies came from the peasantry but they were expected to come with military equipment, even if it was definitely on the cheaper end.
 

Hospodar

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Yes, and they were armed.
My point is that the stereotypical image of Medieval armies composed of civilians armed with forks is a myth, conscripted levies came from the peasantry but they were expected to come with military equipment, even if it was definitely on the cheaper end.
Pretty much. And they were the equivalent of HoI4's 'scrapping the barrel'.

A late 15th century example:
"Under the reign of Stephen the Great, all farmers and villagers had to bear arms. Stephen justified this by saying that "every man has a duty to defend his fatherland"; according to Polish chronicler Jan Długosz, if someone was found without carrying a weapon, he was sentenced to death.[1] Stephen reformed the army by promoting men from the landed free peasantry răzeşi (i.e. something akin to freeholding yeomen) to infantry (voinici) and light cavalry (hânsari) — to make himself less dependent on the boyars — and introduced his army to guns. In times of crises, The Small Host (Oastea Mică) — which consisted of around 10,000 to 12,000 men — stood ready to engage the enemy, while the Large Host (Oastea Mare) — which could reach up to 40,000 — had all the free peasantry older than 14, and strong enough to carry a sword or use the bow, recruited. This seldom happened, for such a levée en masse was devastating for both economy and population growth. In the Battle of Vaslui, Stephen had to summon the Large Host and also recruited mercenary troops."

 
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