CK3 Dev Diary #17 - Governments, Vassal Management, Laws, and Raiding

CK3 Dev Diary #17 - Governments, Vassal Management, Laws, and Raiding

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es333

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The core system is very similar to CK2. If you’re a Pagan or Tribal ruler, you have the ability to raid other rulers’ lands. To do so you raise a raid army, and march or sail over to your target. Only the Norse can raid across sea; other raid armies will simply be unable to embark.
This has been changed, right? Estonians were raiding the Scandinavian coastline even before the viking age and the first ships with sails (700-750AD) from the Baltic sea region were discovered in Saaremaa, Estonia. + Saaremaa literally has a viking ship as its coat of arms in CK.

Snorri Sturluson relates in his Ynglinga saga how the Swedish king Ingvar (7th century), the son of Östen and a great warrior, who was forced to patrol the shores of his kingdom fighting pirates from Estonia. The saga speaks of his invasion of Estonia where he fell in a battle against the men of Estland who had come down with a great army. After the battle, King Ingvar was buried close to the seashore in Estonia and the Swedes returned home.[9]

 
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Hospodar

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This has been changed, right? Estonians were raiding the Scandinavian coastline even before the viking age and the first ships with sails (700-750AD) from the Baltic sea region were discovered in Saaremaa, Estonia. + Saaremaa literally has a viking ship as its coat of arms in CK.

Snorri Sturluson relates in his Ynglinga saga how the Swedish king Ingvar (7th century), the son of Östen and a great warrior, who was forced to patrol the shores of his kingdom fighting pirates from Estonia. The saga speaks of his invasion of Estonia where he fell in a battle against the men of Estland who had come down with a great army. After the battle, King Ingvar was buried close to the seashore in Estonia and the Swedes returned home.[9]

And not only the Estonians, but also the Slavs:

"According to Swedish sources, the Novgorodians and their Karelian allies launched pirate raids against mainland Sweden during the 12th century."

"Although the Novgorodians took part in the Tsargrad expeditions of the 10th century and mounted pillaging raids to Finland in the 12th century (compare Swedish–Novgorodian Wars), the Ushkuyniks first appear in the historical record as an organized force in the 1320s. Arranged in squadrons which could number several thousand, the Ushkuyniks enjoyed the patronage of influential boyar families of Novgorod, who used them to demonstrate Novgorod's military clout to its neighbours and to advance its trade interests and influence along the Volga river and its Rusĭ or Rusy regions."
 
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es333

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And not only the Estonians, but also the Slavs:

"According to Swedish sources, the Novgorodians and their Karelian allies launched pirate raids against mainland Sweden during the 12th century."

"Although the Novgorodians took part in the Tsargrad expeditions of the 10th century and mounted pillaging raids to Finland in the 12th century (compare Swedish–Novgorodian Wars), the Ushkuyniks first appear in the historical record as an organized force in the 1320s. Arranged in squadrons which could number several thousand, the Ushkuyniks enjoyed the patronage of influential boyar families of Novgorod, who used them to demonstrate Novgorod's military clout to its neighbours and to advance its trade interests and influence along the Volga river and its Rusĭ or Rusy regions."
That's the 12th century and in relation to wars, also Novgorod was orthodox then so they wouldn't raid anyway. You cannot even compare some wartime 12th century raids of some Orthodox christians to a Nordic pagan culture which had been raiding and seafaring on a constant basis for 500+ years. Raiding and seafaring was ingrained into the Estonian culture even before Slavs had arrived to NW-Russia.

Also: The Republic prospered as the easternmost port of the Hanseatic League and its Slavic, Baltic and Finnic people were much influenced by the culture of the Viking-Varangians
 

Hospodar

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That's the 12th century and in relation to wars, also Novgorod was orthodox then so they wouldn't raid anyway. You cannot even compare some wartime 12th century raids of some Orthodox christians to a Nordic pagan culture which had been raiding and seafaring on a constant basis for 500+ years. Raiding and seafaring was ingrained into the Estonian culture even before Slavs had arrived to NW-Russia.
It's not a matter of extent, but of historical attestation in itself. Point being that locking raiding behind culture is silly. Given the new culture system, Paradox should at the very least consider making one of the innovations to be raiding, though it'd be better for it to be more broadly available regardless of region/culture given that the AI can be designed as to not partake in raiding if certain conditions are not met. This way you can avoid too much historical implausibility on the part of the AI, yet maintain a higher degree of player freedom.

I also wouldn't make the assumption that somehow being Christian, Orthodox or otherwise, would mean that one couldn't raid. Vikings themselves continued raiding after the adoption of institutionalized Christianity within their Scandinavian homelands. Raiding died out not directly as a result of their communities becoming Christian (i.e. a formal abolishment of raiding on dogmatic grounds), but rather indirectly due to the fact that raiding was no longer profitable.


"The assimilation of the nascent Scandinavian kingdoms into the cultural mainstream of European Christendom altered the aspirations of Scandinavian rulers and of Scandinavians able to travel overseas, and changed their relations with their neighbours.

One of the primary sources of profit for the Vikings had been slave-taking. The medieval Church held that Christians should not own fellow Christians as slaves, so chattel slavery diminished as a practice throughout northern Europe. This took much of the economic incentive out of raiding, though sporadic slaving activity continued into the 11th century. Scandinavian predation in Christian lands around the North and Irish Seas diminished markedly.

The kings of Norway continued to assert power in parts of northern Britain and Ireland, and raids continued into the 12th century, but the military ambitions of Scandinavian rulers were now directed toward new paths."


As for the Slavs, they were not (solely) wartime raiding (though I'll concede that the historical attestations are towards the end of CK's timeline and/or soon after it):

"When Uzbek Khan died he deprived the Golden Horde and thus Russia of a firm hand able to control all political and trade affairs. With the Golden Horde's government in chaos in the mid-fourteenth century, Russian bandits by the thousands, who had previously been held somewhat in check by their princes and the punitive action of Mongol detachments, terrorized outlying Russian settlements and the ports along water routes to the Caspian Sea from Russia. In their raids against Nizhegorod (Nizhni Novgorod, Gorky) and other towns between 1366 and 1375, the Russians caught large numbers of Central Asian merchants by surprise, slaughtered them, and plundered their boats, carrying off many Slavs to the slave markets at Bulgar and Hajjitarkhan (Astrakhan)."

Allworth, Edward A. (1994-10-01). Central Asia: One Hundred Thirty Years of Russian Dominance, a Historical Overview (003 ed.). Durham: DUKE UNIV PR. pp. 21-22.
 
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Redschnipz

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Gavelkind specifically was mostly an English/Welsh/Irish thing. Similar systems existed elsewhere, but they weren't called that. So a different name is fine. Renaming primogeniture and agnatic/cognatic is bad though. Those terms are used very universally even today
Gavelkind was English. Ireland and Wales did not use Gavelkind. Remember r the English only came in the 5th century so it wouldn't make sence for pre-invasion to use that system
 

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Gavelkind was English. Ireland and Wales did not use Gavelkind. Remember r the English only came in the 5th century so it wouldn't make sence for pre-invasion to use that system
Many things have been invented in several places independently. It's not like there are that many ways to divided an inheritance. The English name was later applied to things that already existed.
 
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Many things have been invented in several places independently. It's not like there are that many ways to divided an inheritance. The English name was later applied to things that already existed.
But it wasn't gavelkind. In gavelkind the land was split into equal slices for each son like what happend in carolingian empire. The kingdom would split up. In Ireland the kingdom stayed united. Only one became king through election, yes there was splitting of land but that was with the clan not just the sons.
 

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The core system is very similar to CK2. If you’re a Pagan or Tribal ruler, you have the ability to raid other rulers’ lands. To do so you raise a raid army, and march or sail over to your target. Only the Norse can raid across sea; other raid armies will simply be unable to embark.
This has been changed, right? Estonians were raiding the Scandinavian coastline even before the viking age and the first ships with sails (700-750AD) from the Baltic sea region were discovered in Saaremaa, Estonia. + Saaremaa literally has a viking ship as its coat of arms in CK.

Snorri Sturluson relates in his Ynglinga saga how the Swedish king Ingvar (7th century), the son of Östen and a great warrior, who was forced to patrol the shores of his kingdom fighting pirates from Estonia. The saga speaks of his invasion of Estonia where he fell in a battle against the men of Estland who had come down with a great army. After the battle, King Ingvar was buried close to the seashore in Estonia and the Swedes returned home.[9]

I found an interesting article about this topic where different researchers comment about Finnic vikings being ignored in many contexts:
https://researchinestonia.eu/2020/06/09/baltic-finns-were-vikings-too-but-the-world-ignores-it/

It was a fascinating read.
 
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TheRealRemus

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Late to the party but I just wanted to say that I think it's super cool that you have added Klingenberg and Würzburg as actual holdings!
I'm sure Aschaffenburg will be there too!
But what about the all known Lohr am Main (this is where I am from) or even Neustadt am Main?

Not gonna lie I'm super hyped for ck3 eventhough I'm not done with ck2 yet.

P.S. I gotta say after getting used to these Latin (?) Words primo, ultimo gesture and gravelkind, I will miss these.
 

Karlington

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@Meneth, does this mean that raiding is only unlocked by religion and/or government in CK3, and never by culture alone as in CK2?

I do hope so. :) Raiding was far too powerful a mechanic in CK2 IMO, so raiding cultures had a huge edge over non-raiding cultures.
 
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Does this mean that raiding is only unlocked by religion and/or government in CK3, and never by culture alone as in CK2?

I do hope so. :) Raiding was far too powerful a mechanic in CK2 IMO, so raiding cultures had a huge edge over non-raiding cultures.
Really? I was never able to get effective use out of it, but I am not an especially experienced player.
 

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Really? I was never able to get effective use out of it, but I am not an especially experienced player.
Yeah, the financial benefits are enormous. It can also be used to get a head start on enemies before war. For example if you are planning to holy war or claim war someone you can go over with raiding troops and sack their holdings first. Since sacking a holding wipes out all garrison troops and levies in that holding, it becomes easy pickings for an immediately following war. This basically decides the entire war beforehand, unless your target is a very large realm like peak Holy Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire.

You can also use it to capture enemy artifacts and courtiers with bloodlines, though that's pretty much a crapshoot unless you're pagan (they get big bonuses to those sorts of things).
 

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Yeah, the financial benefits are enormous. It can also be used to get a head start on enemies before war. For example if you are planning to holy war or claim war someone you can go over with raiding troops and sack their holdings first. Since sacking a holding wipes out all garrison troops and levies in that holding, it becomes easy pickings for an immediately following war. This basically decides the entire war beforehand, unless your target is a very large realm like peak Holy Roman Empire or Byzantine Empire.

You can also use it to capture enemy artifacts and courtiers with bloodlines, though that's pretty much a crapshoot unless you're pagan (they get big bonuses to those sorts of things).
Does the raiding force not count towards your total available troops (ie free troops)? I generally found that my attempts at raiding were generally squashed in their early phases. Do you just have to wait until their forces are busy with another war or something? If so why not just declare war then?
 

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Does the raiding force not count towards your total available troops (ie free troops)? I generally found that my attempts at raiding were generally squashed in their early phases. Do you just have to wait until their forces are busy with another war or something? If so why not just declare war then?
It does count. You raise troops as normal, then you can toggle raiding on/off.

If you're unable to take them on and any raiding forces you sent over there get squashed then I'd recommend against declaring war on them, as they would get squashed just as easily with the raiding flag turned off. :)
 

junassa

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I'm trying to understand how raiding will work with the new war system. There's been talk about how an army can't just beeline to the enemy's capital, one must siege land along the way. Now also adding the restriction of not being able to raid by boat it sounds like for non Norse cultures, raiding will be of limited use.
 

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I'm trying to understand how raiding will work with the new war system. There's been talk about how an army can't just beeline to the enemy's capital, one must siege land along the way. Now also adding the restriction of not being able to raid by boat it sounds like for non Norse cultures, raiding will be of limited use.
I got the feeling that that is intentional. It does take care of the exploits I mentioned above, while still retaining its intended function (getting money). It definitely does limit its usefulness, but I think that's a good thing. It was just too overpowered in CK2. :(
 

junassa

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I got the feeling that that is intentional. It does take care of the exploits I mentioned above, while still retaining its intended function (getting money). It definitely does limit its usefulness, but I think that's a good thing. It was just too overpowered in CK2. :(
I have concerns that raiding in CK3 won't be worth the effort unless one is playing as Norse (or as Kanem, which I play a lot in CK2). Usually the ones that can raid are tribal, and their neighbor's are generally tribal, which means the only ones they can effectively raid (w/o being able to raid by boat) will be tribal. There's not much income available if that's the case.

If tribal income from the realm hasn't changed significantly but the war/raiding system has it's going to really hurt tribal play. But I have no way of knowing if that's the case. I really hope the devs switch from leon to tribal pagan before launch.
 

Karlington

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I have concerns that raiding in CK3 won't be worth the effort unless one is playing as Norse (or as Kanem, which I play a lot in CK2). Usually the ones that can raid are tribal, and their neighbor's are generally tribal, which means the only ones they can effectively raid (w/o being able to raid by boat) will be tribal. There's not much income available if that's the case.
I agree with what you're saying, yet with the exception of removing boat raiding for non-Norse, isn't that pretty much the same as it was in CK2? The majority of tribals did not have many opportunities to raid anyone except their neighbors. Most of them were landlocked, and even those who weren't did not have access to very many ships (unless you built them up bigtime).