CK3 Community Title Project and Character Name Packs.

[Uebergold]

I can help with Norse culture group but I am still working on the EtB sheet for Germany. Right now I am at k_bavaria.

 

[Necrochar]

I can help with Norse culture group but I am still working on the EtB sheet for Germany. Right now I am at k_bavaria.

You have a whole week to contribute, my friend.

 

[Farabi]

Can we perchance have a tab for Court Chaplains? Cultural variations on the court faith title would be excellent (and I really want to get rid of a few titles that make a hash of medieval Islamic practice - although tbh I would like to overhaul a good deal more of the localisation for Islam too).

I'm also wondering what the approach ought to be for the 'religious titles' tab in religions which - to vastly oversimplify - historically functioned with 'lay clergy' (I presume 'religious titles' can only be activated by creating heresies?). Should we be designing a completely ahistorical, obviously religiously inaccurate, but at least linguistically plausible theocratic religious hierarchy in each language, or reigning it in as far as possible by taking and repeating castle-holder titles?

Similarly, what of barely known, fictionalised religions like 'Zunism' where almost everything must be made from whole cloth? I'm sure I can throw in a bunch of stuff I borrowed and altered from Zoroastrianism and the Sassanian Empire from my Pagan Flavor mod for CK2, but I'm not sure whether that's what we're going for...

 

[Necrochar]

I am also looking for a new thumbnail if you are interested!​

Man. Just today I was thinking, "Damn, Our thumbnail is a ordinary screenshot which doesn't even tell our name". Also my suggestion would be to expand your description too while you are at it, Looking at other mods, It feels like a disservice to the effort all of us put in.

 

[Necrochar]

Can we perchance have a tab for Court Chaplains? Cultural variations on the court faith title would be excellent (and I really want to get rid of a few titles that make a hash of medieval Islamic practice - although tbh I would like to overhaul a good deal more of the localisation for Islam too).

Court chaplain is on the cards. The reason why we haven't done it yet, is because the Court Chaplain titles are based their religious landed titles (Like Arch Bishop). For unlanded ones we will have to fill one ourselves (which should be a row for each faith in the religious sheet, but I could not find it.).
So it was understandable that we waited for these religious titles to get filled up.

@TheGib770 @Viridianus , Can we add a priest row for each faith at the end, which could act as both the unlanded title and the default title for the faiths. Something to think about

I'm also wondering what the approach ought to be for the 'religious titles' tab in religions which - to vastly oversimplify - historically functioned with 'lay clergy' (I presume 'religious titles' can only be activated by creating heresies?). Should we be designing a completely ahistorical, obviously religiously inaccurate, but at least linguistically plausible theocratic religious hierarchy in each language, or reigning it in as far as possible by taking and repeating castle-holder titles?

Similarly, what of barely known, fictionalised religions like 'Zunism' where almost everything must be made from whole cloth? I'm sure I can throw in a bunch of stuff I borrowed and altered from Zoroastrianism and the Sassanian Empire from my Pagan Flavor mod for CK2, but I'm not sure whether that's what we're going for...

Actually I also share these concerns, Theocracy was a very European concept, in sense did not make sense in India (Also this can be extended to asia in a way), at max I could get two tiers of titles (Maybe a baron and Count?), which again might not be unique for all cultures, so some sort of default mechanism should be discussed.

 

[Necrochar]

@Farabi Would you say the titles between various faiths of Islam differed a lot or was it kind of similar across the religion

 

[TheGib770]

Man. Just today I was thinking, "Damn, Our thumbnail is a ordinary screenshot which doesn't even tell our name". Also my suggestion would be to expand your description too while you are at it, Looking at other mods, It feels like a disservice to the effort all of us put in.

What do you suggest?

@Farabi Would you say the titles between various faiths of Islam differed a lot or was it kind of similar across the religion

I know Imam was more of a sunny thing

 

[Koyraboro]

Where is the discord?

 

[Necrochar]

Where is the discord?

Uhhh... I'll Create one right away. I thought there wasn't much interest for it. Sorry.

Edit: I'll Paste a link as soon as I finish the basic structure. Brb

 

[Necrochar]

DISCORD LINK

So I did create stuff. But be careful this is just bare bones, and there might be some errors.

If anyone could join and help me test it out, It would be nice.

Discord - A New Way to Chat with Friends & Communities

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Deprecated

@TheGib770 Join ASAP

 

[Necrochar]

What do you suggest?

I just meant in context of more content to get across the amount of flavourisation we have done.

 

[TheGib770]

DISCORD LINK

So I did create stuff. But be careful this is just bare bones, and there might be some errors.

If anyone could join and help me test it out, It would be nice.

Discord - A New Way to Chat with Friends & Communities

Discord is the easiest way to communicate over voice, video, and text. Chat, hang out, and stay close with your friends and communities.

discord.gg

@TheGib770 Join ASAP

Link expired

 

[Aemr]

I may have already raised this point on the sheet but my displeasure is so great I am going to raise it here too. Brytenwalda for all Anglo-Saxon kings!? What, why?! Literally only one king of the English used this title, whereas they all used the title cyning.

 

[Farabi]

@Farabi Would you say the titles between various faiths of Islam differed a lot or was it kind of similar across the religion

Hm. You need to understand that that's a difficult question to answer before we even get to different variations of Islam. Because basically I'm going to ask 'which titles, and who grants them?'.

Religious authority was not collected and pooled in a seperate caste of people like Christian priests with their strict hierarchy and apostolic succession. True, the religious scholars - the ulama - were the carriers of tradition, but during the first five centuries of Islam, they developed their own practices and organisations independent of the state, and many held secular jobs. In later centuries, they became gradually more professionalised, and various religious functions came with stipends and official responsibilities.

So in one case, in one era, we may have an imam who is a pious, learned man respected in the community, but who is simply a member of the congregation who leads prayers and is a bookseller by trade. Another educated man might deliver the khatib - the sermon - from the minbar (also in Arabic). A third may be known locally as an authority on hadith and a hamil who had memorised the Quran, but not as a great orator.

In a different case, we have a salaried imam in an urban madrasa who in addition to leading prayers is contracted to offer Quran instruction alongside another instructor and a hadith scholar.

Then perhaps we have a renowned academic and polymath who has the patronage of the Sultan and whom the latter consults on moral quandaries, who is quite a separate figure to the officially appointed qadis and muftis who operate within the state bureacracy.

These are all Sunni Muslims.

You see how complicated this gets?

CK3 has a very 'three estates' western Catholic system into which it is difficult to shoehorn Islamic concepts and religious roles. In CK3 we need to figure out what best represents what this dude is even doing and what is suitable flavourwise.

Considering his responsibilities, the 'Court Imam' could be a bunch of things, but which role should be stressed the most in every context? For the Qarmatians, perhaps he is best as a da'i? For Sunni Muslims, a qadi? Should a marabout get a look-in over in West Africa?

Sorry if this tangent isn't quite the answer you are looking for!

 

[TheGib770]

Hm. You need to understand that that's a difficult question to answer before we even get to different variations of Islam. Because basically I'm going to ask 'which titles, and who grants them?'.

Religious authority was not collected and pooled in a seperate caste of people like Christian priests with their strict hierarchy and apostolic succession. True, the religious scholars - the ulama - were the carriers of tradition, but during the first five centuries of Islam, they developed their own practices and organisations independent of the state, and many held secular jobs. In later centuries, they became gradually more professionalised, and various religious functions came with stipends and official responsibilities.

So in one case, in one era, we may have an imam who is a pious, learned man respected in the community, but who is simply a member of the congregation who leads prayers and is a bookseller by trade. Another educated man might deliver the khatib - the sermon - from the minbar (also in Arabic). A third may be known locally as an authority on hadith and a hamil who had memorised the Quran, but not as a great orator.

In a different case, we have a salaried imam in an urban madrasa who in addition to leading prayers is contracted to offer Quran instruction alongside another instructor and a hadith scholar.

Then perhaps we have a renowned academic and polymath who has the patronage of the Sultan and whom the latter consults on moral quandaries, who is quite a separate figure to the officially appointed qadis and muftis who operate within the state bureacracy.

These are all Sunni Muslims.

You see how complicated this gets?

CK3 has a very 'three estates' western Catholic system into which it is difficult to shoehorn Islamic concepts and religious roles. In CK3 we need to figure out what best represents what this dude is even doing and what is suitable flavourwise.

Considering his responsibilities, the 'Court Imam' could be a bunch of things, but which role should be stressed the most in every context? For the Qarmatians, perhaps he is best as a da'i? For Sunni Muslims, a qadi? Should a marabout get a look-in over in West Africa?

Sorry if this tangent isn't quite the answer you are looking for!

We can have it set up for different titles based on tiers as well. An emperor's priest can vary in stature from a baron's.

The best way to visualize what ck3 priest is not to think of them as just leading prayers and rituals at the court, but directing the power of the state church at the behest of the local lord. They can provide missionary efforts, promote religious/charity PR, and embolden the ruler's 'divine will' in game.

 

[Necrochar]

Link expired

Join the CT&NP mods +UniUI Discord Server!

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I think this one should work.
idk how that got expired :\

EDIT: This works, Anyone intrested can join now.

 

[Necrochar]

Hm. You need to understand that that's a difficult question to answer before we even get to different variations of Islam. Because basically I'm going to ask 'which titles, and who grants them?'.

Religious authority was not collected and pooled in a seperate caste of people like Christian priests with their strict hierarchy and apostolic succession. True, the religious scholars - the ulama - were the carriers of tradition, but during the first five centuries of Islam, they developed their own practices and organisations independent of the state, and many held secular jobs. In later centuries, they became gradually more professionalised, and various religious functions came with stipends and official responsibilities.

So in one case, in one era, we may have an imam who is a pious, learned man respected in the community, but who is simply a member of the congregation who leads prayers and is a bookseller by trade. Another educated man might deliver the khatib - the sermon - from the minbar (also in Arabic). A third may be known locally as an authority on hadith and a hamil who had memorised the Quran, but not as a great orator.

In a different case, we have a salaried imam in an urban madrasa who in addition to leading prayers is contracted to offer Quran instruction alongside another instructor and a hadith scholar.

Then perhaps we have a renowned academic and polymath who has the patronage of the Sultan and whom the latter consults on moral quandaries, who is quite a separate figure to the officially appointed qadis and muftis who operate within the state bureacracy.

These are all Sunni Muslims.

You see how complicated this gets?

CK3 has a very 'three estates' western Catholic system into which it is difficult to shoehorn Islamic concepts and religious roles. In CK3 we need to figure out what best represents what this dude is even doing and what is suitable flavourwise.

Considering his responsibilities, the 'Court Imam' could be a bunch of things, but which role should be stressed the most in every context? For the Qarmatians, perhaps he is best as a da'i? For Sunni Muslims, a qadi? Should a marabout get a look-in over in West Africa?

Sorry if this tangent isn't quite the answer you are looking for!

This is exactly what i'm looking for, if you feel that the whole thing is being shoehorned into something which is not very representative of that religion/culture, please let us know. This kind of feedback that really helps make our mod more authentic.
My question would be, how would you approach "religious titles" for Islam. From a game play perspective, what sort of things are things would you use to distinguish these titles. Since we are custom localizing this stuff, that gives us some really neat ways of almost checking any condition (that the vanilla game allows).

From what I understand of your post, we cannot separate the council roles into two (or more). There are mods that do that, but even they don't modify tasks of the Vanilla Councillors as it can have a effect on various event chains.
If there's any other way you want to discern these titles, let us know.

 

[Viridianus]

Can we add a priest row for each faith at the end, which could act as both the unlanded title and the default title for the faiths.

At some moment @TheGib770 said that court chaplain defaults to priest, so we didn't have separate rows. This can be changed, of course, but I really don't want to touch RT sheet with a five-foot pole for now, I'm sick of it

 

[Farabi]

From what I understand of your post, we cannot separate the council roles into two (or more). There are mods that do that, but even they don't modify tasks of the Vanilla Councillors as it can have a effect on various event chains.
If there's any other way you want to discern these titles, let us know.

Sorry, I should try and avoid writing at midnight.

Essentially, as I say we're just going to have to fudge it with what seems broadly flavour appropriate. A Sunni realm always needs a qadi, so I can come up with some suggestions for that, maybe with da'i to represent the missionary-oriented operations of Qarmatians (and maybe Ismailis...).

My question would be, how would you approach "religious titles" for Islam. From a game play perspective, what sort of things are things would you use to distinguish these titles. Since we are custom localizing this stuff, that gives us some really neat ways of almost checking any condition (that the vanilla game allows).

I think one of my personal issues is that I don't fully understand how the religious title leasing/independent holder system works with all the prince-bishops and archbishops etc. The councillor_court_chaplain_islam_county and baron_theocracy_male_islam_religion titles are localised differently.

Perhaps the best fudge for the ahistoricity of this structure here is vagueness, generally taking honorific titles indicating the holder's piety and prominence without any claim to a particular religious office. Although I'm sure there's also place for an Amir al-Mu'minin or two at king-tier. I can come up with some ideas here too.

 

[Uebergold]

Then this discussion is better placed to the sheets.

Done.