CK2Plus - Suggestion Thread

[Rylock]

The question isn't really whether it's possible, it's whether the AI is capable of doing it -- and also whether converting to feudalism effectively becomes a bad idea unless you've gone out of your way to carefully cultivate both yourself and your vassals for the event (and the ability to get your vassals to convert is generally out of your hands, anyhow).

I'd agree that it's currently too easy -- but, like I've said before, simply reverting to the old method ignores the fact that it also had some serious issues on the gameplay side.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Any chance there could be a decision/event to simulate the founding of the Rum sultanate and settlement of Turks in Anatolia? The conflict between the Turks and Byzantium was key to the latter's downfall and pushing the AI towards creating a similar political situation when plausible would improve historical accuracy without being deterministic or detrimental to gameplay.

 

[Rylock]

Any chance there could be a decision/event to simulate the founding of the Rum sultanate and settlement of Turks in Anatolia? The conflict between the Turks and Byzantium was key to the latter's downfall and pushing the AI towards creating a similar political situation when plausible would improve historical accuracy without being deterministic or detrimental to gameplay.

Currently, Rum forms if the muslims invade Nicaea via jihad -- though that doesn't happen very often. You'd also have to first get the Turks into Persia, which historically happened via the Seljuks, and the vanilla Seljuk creation events aren't great. It's on my list of things to improve. So, currently? You're unlikely to get Turks in Anatolia if you start in any bookmark prior to the Seljuk Empire existing. The only way to have it happen more often afterwards is via an event/decision to prompt the jihad declaration, I suppose.

 

[divsky]

(and the ability to get your vassals to convert is generally out of your hands, anyhow).

Not really. If you're a feudal ruler with tribal vassals and construct a stone hillfort for them, they will convert almost instantly. A ruler doing favors for his vassals is not shockingly unrealistic by any means.

If you're worried about the AI converting I would suggest making some AI-only events that might push them down that path. This new system is awful though and I haven't played CK2 since 2.4.x for that reason alone (I almost always start tribal and go to feudal). It desperately needs fixed. I know sometimes realism needs to make sacrifices for gameplay, but I cannot suspend my disbelief anymore when magical castles and cities materialize out of thin air.

 

[zeress]

but I cannot suspend my disbelief anymore when magical castles and cities materialize out of thin air.

Hillforts of last rank turning into castles is seemingly more believable I guess. As is severely punishing and crippling anyone who dares to try to enact the decision too early because their vassals go from supporting you, to giving you zero support due to wrong government type malus because your particular hillfort(s) transformed.

 

[horngeek]

Hillforts turning into castles is seemingly more believable I guess

Well, the way I always read it was that at the point where you're at Stone Hillfort or Large Market City, there's no actual building left to be done to convert the holding into a Castle or City holding- the difference essentially becomes an organisational one.

 

[zeress]

Well, the way I always read it was that at the point where you're at Stone Hillfort or Large Market City, there's no actual building left to be done to convert the holding into a Castle or City holding- the difference essentially becomes an organisational one.

If you go by that logic, then your government goes from being able to handle tribal vassals, to seemingly relieving themselves in their collective breakfast trays in mere moments (unless they happen to also have the same hillforts or Cities). It's not a very good mechanic in the first place in general to be fair and suspension of disbelief is fairly low on our totem pole of priorities when it comes to mechanics.

 

[Rylock]

My issue with the original system is just that:

Unless you're a player who's already familiar with exactly what the effects of becoming feudal will be, it will leave you in a worse position than before. You'll have tribal vassals who suddenly dislike you (though, I believe, there's already a system in place so that tribal vassals of the same culture don't have the malus) and your other tribal holdings will be almost worthless if you didn't know ahead of time to make sure they were all fully upgraded.

And this is nothing compared to teaching the AI when it's a good time to feudalize -- if you try to make sure they have all their holdings upgraded and their vassals ready to also feudalize, it will likely never happen until much later in the game...if at all.

Hence why I went along with vanilla's new implementation, even though it also has a serious drawback in that it seems almost too easy -- not only do you just have to upgrade your capital, you also get free holdings in every province.

I see why they did it -- feudalizing is supposed to be a reward, not a penalty -- but, insofar as changing it to something else, going back to the old system just as it was just isn't something I'm interested in. A reasonable suggestion would have to be something that the AI could also do (intelligently and achievably), and a player who wasn't ultra-informed could grasp. With those two things in mind, I'm all ears.

 

[Ferrero]

Hello,
long time lurker and long time CK2+ player, this is my first post in a while.
Would it be possible to differentiate between royal and imperial coronation? When in an empire we get a few kings or viceroys poised to become emperor (my favourite way of preparing my heir for succession), they get crowned as soon as they can while king, and then become emperor by being already crowned. Now, this is a double-edged sword, as they start without the uncrowned malus, but also cannot lower imperial decadence by means of the ceremony. I think that having two different traits, one for kings and one for emperors would make sense, as the two ranks are qualitatively different and the king of a small kingdom wouldn't necessarily be accepted as the rightful ruler by all the vassals of the empire, even if locally crowned.

 

[divsky]

You'll have tribal vassals who suddenly dislike you (though, I believe, there's already a system in place so that tribal vassals of the same culture don't have the malus)

Sounds like you already fixed that problem then.

and your other tribal holdings will be almost worthless if you didn't know ahead of time to make sure they were all fully upgraded.

Can we just make it so that tribal holdings still get the bonus for empty holding slots under feudalism? It would fix that problem without breaking anything.

And this is nothing compared to teaching the AI when it's a good time to feudalize -- if you try to make sure they have all their holdings upgraded and their vassals ready to also feudalize, it will likely never happen until much later in the game...if at all.

If we have the two fixes above (no opinion malus for wrong government type and tribal holdings still get bonus troops under feudal) I don't think the AI would have any problem converting. If it's a problem with encouraging them to convert, as I said before some simple AI-only events could help them out.

 

[Fall_ark]

I'm just a bit curious what exactly are people aiming for with the "old" feudalization. To pay 1100 gold for the initial 2 extra holdings for every tribal province isn't challenging, it's just tedious and unfair. "Realistically" all the Saxony and Norse tribals only feudalize after Christianization, so how the heck would they (take either Denmark, Norway or Sweden in 1066 start for example) have the 10000+ money to have all those new holdings (not to mention the super expensive buildings in CK2+!) in a little more than 100 years? I'd even venture to say that with the new "wrong holdings gets 0 garrison and levy" mechanism, the 500 and 600 gold for the first 2 extra holdings seems exorbitantly high.

Maybe each feudalization would have an option between "pay 50-100 gold and start building two new holdings" and "do not build new holdings, but give 20% tax and levy modifier for the province", with AI always choosing the first option. And maybe only let AI upgrade their tribal land when they have a little more than 50 gold, so the conversion would happen slower. Thoughts?

 

[Rylock]

Can we just make it so that tribal holdings still get the bonus for empty holding slots under feudalism? It would fix that problem without breaking anything.

No, that can't be done.

Though, after some testing, it does look like Paradox made it so you can be feudal and have tribal holdings that don't have any penalty, provided the province is of the same culture. So that means, if you have same-culture tribal vassals and tribal holdings in provinces of your culture, you should see almost no difference overall...so that makes me more inclined to allow the player into a system where they can upgrade to feudal but potentially still have some tribal holdings.

The team was discussing it last night, and what we'll also do is, rather than give you the instant-cities and instant-temples, use the existing events that build cities and temples for tribals and speed them up after feudalization. They're not free, after all, but they're much cheaper than regular holdings, and it'll still simulate the rapid spread of cities under feudalization.

It'll need to bear out under testing, but yes...that should be a start.

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Currently there is an event chain which allows rulers of a modern religion (catholic, sunni, etc) with the theology focus to convert to the old pagan religion of their culture. Could a similar chain of events be created for existing pagans to covert to a modern faith?

 

[robomax]

This has Probably been brought up before . So I apologize if it has in advance.
Suggestion Can we get rid of the Strait to Gotland . The only reason to play Gotland early is to form a republic later. And you will get blown out early and vasseled. Then you have to look for some random event to gain independence again to form the republic. Mostly that's the only county your going hold early if your going to play it as a republic. (Playing for wealth not Territory and prestige)
Next Suggestion Can The Island off west Africa (Canary Island Modern term) be its on Titular Duchy. And Kutch In India and Maldives theirs Evidence that these were their own separate kingdoms even in the Middle Ages.
Thanks

 

[sejemaset]

Currently there is an event chain which allows rulers of a modern religion (catholic, sunni, etc) with the theology focus to convert to the old pagan religion of their culture. Could a similar chain of events be created for existing pagans to covert to a modern faith?

You can already convert from pagan to a modern faith. All it requires is a spouse of that religion.

This has Probably been brought up before . So I apologize if it has in advance.
Suggestion Can we get rid of the Strait to Gotland . The only reason to play Gotland early is to form a republic later. And you will get blown out early and vasseled. Then you have to look for some random event to gain independence again to form the republic. Mostly that's the only county your going hold early if your going to play it as a republic. (Playing for wealth not Territory and prestige)

I agree that the strait makes Gotland harder (impossible?) but wasn't it added because it breaks the game when it's not there?

 

[robomax]

I agree that the strait makes Gotland harder (impossible?) but wasn't it added because it breaks the game when it's not there?

why would it break the game?
The Strait across Uppland to Avhaland isn't their in CK2 Plus it doesn't break the game. Why would that one? makes no sense.

 

[robomax]

CK2 should revert tribal conversion to feudal/merchant republican to how it was prior to 2.4.x, where a holding would convert to a castle ONLY if it had a stone hillfort and no free holdings were produced. As it is now the second you press the convert to feudalism button every single tribal holding, regardless of whats been built there, magically transforms instantly to a castle and new cities and temples appear out of thin air.

This is completely unrealistic and was only changed because people complained that converting from tribalism was too challenging. Since CK2+ aims for a challenging, realistic experience I think we should stick to the old, realistic, and more challenging way.

I converted from tribalism the old way plenty of times it's certainly not impossible.

Not Impossible at all I think most peeps Wanted I don't know what they wanted . But Many People wanted to do it faster . They would have upgraded to soon. get a stone Hill fort and upgrade and leave all the other buildings not even x1. What's the point of playing tribal. I always Maxed out my Tribal holdings to X4 on everything (Except Ships ) basically I got to the point were I couldn't build anything any more. And waited till I had 1000-1500 Gold before upgrading that would build me a city and temple. And have 500 or so gold left for Mercs in case the AI got any funny Ideas. In some cases I was actually ahead when converted. But with the nerfing of the LI all LI its almost impossible to play tribal on Vanilla that's why I switch to CK2 PLUS. The Biggest Issue even with CK2 PLUS is Gold for Tribal. 200 gold to fab a claim ? Maybe for Feudal but for Tribal. 200 Prestige is not an Issue. Actually they could Raise the Prestige for tribal and lower the gold to Fab a claim. One way is to have everything cost Prestige except raise Levies. You would basically saving all your gold for Feudal. Then Building a City and a Temple is no big deal.

 

[sejemaset]

why would it break the game?
The Strait across Uppland to Avhaland isn't their in CK2 Plus it doesn't break the game. Why would that one? makes no sense.

Ahvaland has a straight. To Suomi not to Uppland but that's besides the point. In fact the only Island Duchies without a straight are Iceland and Venice, one of which has 4 counties and the other is a Republic at all starts meaning it has ships.

But as for why it's necessary I don't know, but it's mentioned everywhere I looked that it breaks things if not there.

 

[Rylock]

It's not that it breaks things, it's that the AI has great difficulty dealing with it.

We're not removing the strait. Already been asked and answered previously.

 

[schwarherz]

Currently there is an event chain which allows rulers of a modern religion (catholic, sunni, etc) with the theology focus to convert to the old pagan religion of their culture. Could a similar chain of events be created for existing pagans to covert to a modern faith?

It's already easy enough to become "modernized" already in my opinion. The pagan faiths are susceptible to missionaries, spouse conversion, holy war conversion, etc. And the ai is not shy about sending you missionaries, so there really isn't a point to giving yet another way to convert pagans