CK2Plus - Balance improvements, more kingdoms and empires, more ambitions and plots

[Wizzington]

I'm not following - can you go back and explain in detail?

 

[milt]

Sure. I formed the Lombard Kingdom. Not long after that I received an event that can fire for vassals(here me King of Lombady) to request to rule their de jure vassals(here one of a few duchies in Lombady) currently under direct rule of their higher liege(here the HRE).

That vassal was heir to the former Emperor(house of Billung, the previous dynasty), and I gained ~10 counts/prince bishops to be under my indirect rule in northern Germany. The duchess in question had her capitol in Siena and was duchess of Tuscany. She also held the titles for Saxony and Brunswick along with having two vassals in contested Holstein.

This added to my territory in southern Germany (Bavaria, Tirol and few odd provinces) left me only five provinces short of forming the Kingdom of Germany.

 

[Andrzej I]

Two things:
- Can you make the decision for a ruler to "go native" an event with choices (if it isn't already)? I'd hate for my family to turn whatever culture without a choice in the matter
- Could you perhaps implement the renaming of Silesian provinces as recommended by Raczynski? And maybe some of the other contents of his mod? Not the cities to castles, of course, for balance reasons, but some of the other fixes are good, I think

That said, greatly looking forward to the update!

 

[Wizzington]

Two things:
- Can you make the decision for a ruler to "go native" an event? I'd hate for my family to turn whatever culture without a choice in the matter
- Could you perhaps implement the renaming of Silesian provinces as recommended by Raczynski?

That said, greatly looking forward to the update!

You get an option on whether you want to go native.

 

[Wizzington]

Sure. I formed the Lombard Kingdom. Not long after that I received an event that can fire for vassals(here me King of Lombady) to request to rule their de jure vassals(here one of a few duchies in Lombady) currently under direct rule of their higher liege(here the HRE).

That vassal was heir to the former Emperor(house of Billung, the previous dynasty), and I gained ~10 counts/prince bishops to be under my indirect rule in northern Germany. The duchess in question had her capitol in Siena and was duchess of Tuscany. She also held the titles for Saxony and Brunswick along with having two vassals in contested Holstein.

This added to my territory in southern Germany (Bavaria, Tirol and few odd provinces) left me only five provinces short of forming the Kingdom of Germany.

OK, I see what you mean. It's been addressed.

 

[phargle]

I notice .32 is save-game compatible back to .29. I have .26 installed -- how incompatible are we talking? I might try modifying my savefile if I get a sense of what I'm up against.

Thanks!

 

[Wizzington]

I notice .32 is save-game compatible back to .29. I have .26 installed -- how incompatible are we talking? I might try modifying my savefile if I get a sense of what I'm up against.

Thanks!

It might work fine, it might irrevocably break your save so it crashes every five minutes. I'd try backuping the save and 0.26, update to latest version and run it for 20-30 years to see if you get crashes.

 

[Andrzej I]

You get an option on whether you want to go native.

Awesome, and thoughts about some of the Poland fixes? None of the unbalancing elements, of course, but some of the flavor stuff and fixes to characters (Wladyslaw Herman, for instance) would make me a happy man.

 

[NuberT]

I guess this wasnt supposed to happen.. After the arrival of the Ilkhanate all my vassals were spawning BIG armies - like 2 million in total.. Was playing as the jews - only conclusion I got on this..

 

[cooooooo]

oic

 

[Marconius]

- It now costs 100 piety to wage a Holy War (representing sanction from your priesthood/head of religion). Players can still wage a Holy War without the requisite piety, but winning such a war will result in a severe loss of moral authority. This is meant to slow down the pace of conquest and allow Holy Wars for Pagans without turning Russia and the Baltic into a constant warzone.

I don't get this. Piety is meant to reflect how much of a good Christian/whatever other religion you are; all the things that cost piety are ones that are "evil" or tyrannical or go against the church directly. But waging a Holy War on pagans is exactly what the church -wants-, why would they ever disapprove? If anything, you should -get- piety for starting a holy war; I think you do get some for winning it.

- Removed Warrior Cults. Instead, Pagans start with more regular troop buildings.

While I do find warrior cults annoying, I'm worried this will make pagans very weak later on in the game, when the Christians have built up their own troop buildings. Maybe instead you should leave warrior cults in, but just make them weaker? Or just give pagan rulers or counties a constant bonus to levy size.

- You will no longer have vassals declare independence wars without warning. Instead, vassal revolt risk and effects of regencies/civil wars were tweaked so that revolt chain reactions should happen on their own (see below).
- The AI now gets reduced penalties from regencies and civil wars, as it is not as good at coping with these as a player is.
- Civil War is now a -30 opinion penalty, but you will no longer get the Regency penalty if you are in a Civil War.

So if I'm understanding this right, the idea is that vassals can now only revolt if their revolt risk is high enough (from low opinion, I imagine) and the idea is that if you -do- get into a civil war, the -30 penalty is likely to pull other disgruntled vassals in. So does this address the issue of rebel dukes calling everyone and their mother (sometimes literally) into the war or is that intentional?

Looking good in general, hope you can release soon!

 

[Jaghave]

i ran into a weird glitch where i declare was on one of the Muslim nation in Spain to defend the faith, the war went well and i impose my demand so all wars via the nation against christian should have ended instead if just concluded the war with me and he kept fighting Portugal (the nation he declared war on in the first place) and all the other christian nation i brought into the war

 

[Guildencrantz]

While I do find warrior cults annoying, I'm worried this will make pagans very weak later on in the game, when the Christians have built up their own troop buildings. Maybe instead you should leave warrior cults in, but just make them weaker? Or just give pagan rulers or counties a constant bonus to levy size.

That's what's supposed to happen, though. There's a reason paganism in Europe didn't survive the Middle Ages.

I'm on the side of keeping warrior cults, but I think we're missing a very important way in which Pagan rulers defended against Christians, that is, "if you can't beat 'em - join 'em". The game models the "fire and sword" style of Christianization that occurred in places like Prussia and Finland, but that wasn't the only one. The Poles, Hungarians and Russians had only converted quite recently, and at least two countries - Sweden and Lithuania - remained battlefields between religions for several centuries from game start. However, the key part here is that native nobility took baptism to align themselves with Europe, and that never happens in the game.

What might make Pagans pretty interesting would be to have "missionary" type events, wherein beleaguered Pagan rulers get the opportunity to convert to Christianity. Keeping warrior cults and the overall early game power of pagan militaries, but balancing it out with civil wars, would be both a lot more interesting and a lot more historical than the current "impenetrable border" between two religious worlds.

 

[Wizzington]

I'm playing a beta game right now, and Pagans are still quite strong thanks to the additional buildings. They might even be too strong - the Pruthenians have conquered most of Poland.

 

[Keioel]

This is completely a vanity thing, but could Rome get renamed to Roma?

 

[Neoptolemos]

I don't get this. Piety is meant to reflect how much of a good Christian/whatever other religion you are; all the things that cost piety are ones that are "evil" or tyrannical or go against the church directly. But waging a Holy War on pagans is exactly what the church -wants-, why would they ever disapprove? If anything, you should -get- piety for starting a holy war; I think you do get some for winning it.

Poor Frederick II is proof positive that the Church has to like you for your holy war to count as one. At the same time, it provides a good barrier to prevent infinite holy wars from allowing an overnight conquest of a large area. I applaud its inclusion.

 

[Marconius]

That's what's supposed to happen, though. There's a reason paganism in Europe didn't survive the Middle Ages.

I'm on the side of keeping warrior cults, but I think we're missing a very important way in which Pagan rulers defended against Christians, that is, "if you can't beat 'em - join 'em". The game models the "fire and sword" style of Christianization that occurred in places like Prussia and Finland, but that wasn't the only one. The Poles, Hungarians and Russians had only converted quite recently, and at least two countries - Sweden and Lithuania - remained battlefields between religions for several centuries from game start. However, the key part here is that native nobility took baptism to align themselves with Europe, and that never happens in the game.

What might make Pagans pretty interesting would be to have "missionary" type events, wherein beleaguered Pagan rulers get the opportunity to convert to Christianity. Keeping warrior cults and the overall early game power of pagan militaries, but balancing it out with civil wars, would be both a lot more interesting and a lot more historical than the current "impenetrable border" between two religious worlds.

Keep in mind the map doesn't -just- contain Europe, there are other areas as well. I don't actually know that much about the politics of the era, especially outside Europe, but according to Wikipedia, the Golden Horde (which we can all agree was a major power in the era) was pagan well into the 14th century, when the ruler converted to Islam. And as I recall, the Teutonic Knights (later Prussia) also had to do some converting even in EU3!

So I do feel pagans need a bit of a boost, especially since Christians pretty much get a free pass against them with holy wars; this is no doubt why the warrior cults are in the game in the first place.

Poor Frederick II is proof positive that the Church has to like you for your holy war to count as one. At the same time, it provides a good barrier to prevent infinite holy wars from allowing an overnight conquest of a large area. I applaud its inclusion.

Fair enough, but reduction in piety means you do something that actually -offends- the church. If the issue is just that you need church approval for a holy war, then simply adding a minimum piety limit should be sufficient; I think this would be a good change, actually. But actually -losing- the support and good will of the church for going on a holy war in -their- name and increasing -their- authority seems really odd.

As far as balancing goes, keep in mind that there is a true period for holy wars and you can only take a duchy at a time, so it's not like you can just steamroll over a pagan country and annex it in one war. I think wars against pagans (or pagan wars against Christians, for that matter) -should- be far more deadly and have bigger consequences than petty struggles of nobles over scraps of land.

Although pagans being able to go to holy war does raise a bit of an issue... namely, won't the fact they're stronger to begin with and now they have a free pass to attack any Christians mean they're going to be super aggressive and really successful? I think that might become an issue, but I suppose the increased bonus for the defender may offset this.

 

[Andrzej I]

I don't get this. Piety is meant to reflect how much of a good Christian/whatever other religion you are; all the things that cost piety are ones that are "evil" or tyrannical or go against the church directly. But waging a Holy War on pagans is exactly what the church -wants-, why would they ever disapprove? If anything, you should -get- piety for starting a holy war; I think you do get some for winning it.

It's a balance thing to prevent an overuse of Holy Wars, which make expansion pretty quick and easy. A minimum piety / relations with the Pope wouldn't be bad, especially since, with it at -100 per war, and +50 for winning it... a Holy War has a net loss of piety, which is really odd.

 

[Tempestra]

I'm on the side of keeping warrior cults, but I think we're missing a very important way in which Pagan rulers defended against Christians, that is, "if you can't beat 'em - join 'em". The game models the "fire and sword" style of Christianization that occurred in places like Prussia and Finland, but that wasn't the only one. The Poles, Hungarians and Russians had only converted quite recently, and at least two countries - Sweden and Lithuania - remained battlefields between religions for several centuries from game start. However, the key part here is that native nobility took baptism to align themselves with Europe, and that never happens in the game.

What might make Pagans pretty interesting would be to have "missionary" type events, wherein beleaguered Pagan rulers get the opportunity to convert to Christianity. Keeping warrior cults and the overall early game power of pagan militaries, but balancing it out with civil wars, would be both a lot more interesting and a lot more historical than the current "impenetrable border" between two religious worlds.

Yeah, I agree with this. The current relationship between Pagans and Christians (and actually for Muslims and Christians too) is too flat-out antagonistic, I think. There are numerous historical examples of factions within Pagan states seeking support from Christians, sometimes even converting as a price of that support, but right now it just never happens.

 

[tryadelion]

any way to add own dinasties/characters to the mod? can't find i way to load this mod with the changes without crashing.