CK2 fans will be the first to benefit..

[Meanmanturbo]

You do understand that pre-order DLC/bonuses are the bonus for buying the game full price, right? There's a fairly big 2nd hand games market that gives £0 to publishers/devs, so there's a move to reward people who buy new copies.

Second hand PC games? I don't believe that I have seen that since around 98-99, when CD-burners became way to popular that game store owners would just flat out refuse PC games, assuming that they had been copied. Well, in Sweden anyway, the world is admittedly larger then that

edit

eh, hope that this doesn't violate any forum rules, the point was that the second hand market for PC-games seems to me like a blast form the past then anything else

 

[xGhost4000x]

Second hand PC games? I don't believe that I have seen that since around 98-99, when CD-burners became way to popular that game store owners would just flat out refuse PC games, assuming that they had been copied. Well, in Sweden anyway, the world is admittedly larger then that

edit

eh, hope that this doesn't violate any forum rules, the point was that the second hand market for PC-games seems to me like a blast form the past then anything else

Well theres amazon.com and ebay....atleast in the states.

 

[Meanmanturbo]

Well theres amazon.com and ebay....atleast in the states.

oh yeah, forgot about those, I only thought about browsing games in a physical store, never mind me then

 

[Macs]

You do understand that pre-order DLC/bonuses are the bonus for buying the game full price, right? There's a fairly big 2nd hand games market that gives £0 to publishers/devs, so there's a move to reward people who buy new copies.

Yes, of course I'm aware of that. I guess the difference between rewarding pre-order customers and punishing non-pre-order customers mainly lies in being a developer/publisher and a customer, respectively. Like I said, I'll certainly wait and see how this turns out and will most likely even pre-order CK2 because, up to now Paradox, as a company, didn't disappoint me and the game looks very promising. Still, as I see it, buying a game later, especially if you still pay the full release price for the basic game, shouldn't be a reason to pay more for the same product.

Pardon the exaggerated example, as I know it's not exactly the same, but when Mercedes said the first 1000 customers of the new E-Class will get the the brakes for free, the rest has to pay extra doesn't seem right somehow. If they, on the other hand, said the first 1000 customers got a exclusive sticker which reads "I'm a real Mercedes freak" no one else got, I'd say that's perfectly alright.

The problem with the second hand market is rather that the one selling the game, most likely, will still be able to play it illegally. Otherwise, you sold one copy and one person is using it, so nothing is wrong with reselling, I'd say. But that's more of a matter of piracy and digital/physical products in general, but that's not really point of the discussion here, so I won't to go there.

But I always thought Paradox games wouldn't have much of a problem with that, as it's usually games you play on and off for months or years in contrast to finishing a campaign and maybe dust off the game a few years later when feel like it, which is the case with e.g. most non-MP-focused shooters or adventure games or games with a movie like/story heavy presentation in general. Sure, the already mentioned "wait a year or two and buy it cheaper and complete" mentality sure exists, but I guess the modular expansions coupled with the more frequent patches actually could be a good model to fight that. Still doesn't excuse day one DLC, but then again, we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that.

 

[xGhost4000x]

The problem with the second hand market is rather that the one selling the game, most likely, will still be able to play it illegally. Otherwise, you sold one copy and one person is using it, so nothing is wrong with reselling, I'd say.

You may be correct, but it does hurt the developer. If you buy the game, play it, then sell it to a friend, who plays it and sells it to a friend, and so on 30 times. Thats 30 people who got to play it for the price of 1 sale. I get that nothing illegal is happening as long as you dont make a copy. But it still hurts the developer.

Still doesn't excuse day one DLC, but then again, we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that.

I could be wrong..but I dont remember paradox saying there would be day one DLC.

 

[ramblymanguthri]

Yeah true fan wasn't the best term, but then , most of the team aren't native English speakers, so nuances like that can obviously get lost in.. er...translation.

That they aren't native speakers doesn't matter. Both fan and true fan are expressions used in Swedish the exact same way they are in English (because that's where we got them from), and there is no way one can mistake "early adapter" with "true fan" in Swedish either, nor not understand the difference of meaning in the English language. It was a deliberate choice of words, made for marketing purposes, even if that choice probably wasn't Johan's to make.

You do understand that pre-order DLC/bonuses are the bonus for buying the game full price, right? There's a fairly big 2nd hand games market that gives £0 to publishers/devs, so there's a move to reward people who buy new copies.

And I suppose also getting as many purchases as possible in the first few months? As pre-purchase guarantees an early buy, I mean.

 

[gronank]

But Darkrenown, wouldn't that constitute a fundamental change in the mechanics of the game? If you have something that adds mechanics for the Muslims then that is bound to also change the game for the AI when you're not playing them. So unless it's "Only for the Human, Disabled for AI" or something I don't see how it'd work in Multiplayer with someone who doesn't have that DLC? Would you just have to downgrade in that case and not play muslims if you play with someone uninterested in the past of the world (and thus isn't going to buy DLC for content he doesn't think he'll use)? Just wonderin'.

Would be nice for the same thing to happen for the Polytheists around if you're going that route since I'm sure many of us Scandinavian fans in particular care infinitely more about that.

The way I would do it would be to include the functionality( playable muslim states in this case) in a patch for everyone and the ability to use that functionality in the miniexp. That is, a player with the exp can play multiplayer with a person without it but only the player with the exp can play as a muslim.

That would work well for the "enabling" expansions but I'm not sure how easy it would be to add new features.

 

[xGhost4000x]

The way I would do it would be to include the functionality( playable muslim states in this case) in a patch for everyone and the ability to use that functionality in the miniexp. That is, a player with the exp can play multiplayer with a person without it but only the player with the exp can play as a muslim.

That would work well for the "enabling" expansions but I'm not sure how easy it would be to add new features.

That could be difficult to "lock" for players whom did not purchase the exp. What's to stop modders from using this code?

 

[gronank]

That could be difficult to "lock" for players whom did not purchase the exp. What's to stop modders from using this code?

I have actually no idea what source code modders have access to, but I suspect there could be some system where permissions tied to the user are passed around

 

[Macs]

You may be correct, but it does hurt the developer. If you buy the game, play it, then sell it to a friend, who plays it and sells it to a friend, and so on 30 times. Thats 30 people who got to play it for the price of 1 sale. I get that nothing illegal is happening as long as you dont make a copy. But it still hurts the developer.

Well, the point being, people who wait for a friend to "finish" (as I mentioned, thanks to the sandboxy nature of the Paradox games there actually is no finishing them) the game most likely haven't heard about them or never played one of their games before, so they wouldn't have bought a new copy anyway. In the same vein, the guy selling the game most likely didn't like it, because otherwise there wouldn't be much of a point selling the game.

I could be wrong..but I dont remember paradox saying there would be day one DLC.

They didn't per say. Just read what I posted before, to me it largely depends on the content they classify as "non-pre orders have to pay for later". If it's a gimmick outside of the actual game, I couldn't care less. If it's purely cosmetic, I wouldn't like the practice in general, but still wouldn't mind that much. Charging for real features pre-orders get (at release day, at least that's how I understood it) to me is the same as what is generally called day one DLC. If the pre-order bonus is a discount on later DLCs, again, this is a different matter, of course. It's just leaving out finished in-game content that I really despise, but maybe that's just me.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm trying to bash Paradox, as there are no details on their new system as of yet, so I'm just trying to voice my concerns in what I hope is appropriate manner.

 

[xGhost4000x]

Well, the point being, people who wait for a friend to "finish" (as I mentioned, thanks to the sandboxy nature of the Paradox games there actually is no finishing them) the game most likely haven't heard about them or never played one of their games before, so they wouldn't have bought a new copy anyway. In the same vein, the guy selling the game most likely didn't like it, because otherwise there wouldn't be much of a point selling the game.

I get what you're saying about selling the game used. I really do, and I'm not trying to sound like a P'dox fanboy, I just really don't see why any developer would want that to happen. I get trying to get new people to try the tgame, that's what sales, demos, reviews, and advertising are for. But having the game (which as you've stated can be copied at ease) circulate without any cashflow to P'dox is simply not good.

They didn't per say. Just read what I posted before, to me it largely depends on the content they classify as "non-pre orders have to pay for later". If it's a gimmick outside of the actual game, I couldn't care less. If it's purely cosmetic, I wouldn't like the practice in general, but still wouldn't mind that much. Charging for real features pre-orders get (at release day, at least that's how I understood it) to me is the same as what is generally called day one DLC. If the pre-order bonus is a discount on later DLCs, again, this is a different matter, of course. It's just leaving out finished in-game content that I really despise, but maybe that's just me.

I agree completely. Any preorder bonus can include whatever they want as long as it'snot a real feature. If pre-orders got to play Muslims and no one else did (just an example I know they've said Muslims won't be playable at release) then that would be rediculous.

Cosmetic changes, Forum Icons, Discounts on future DLC, or any other thing (P'dox Tshirt please ) is fine.

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm trying to bash Paradox, as there are no details on their new system as of yet, so I'm just trying to voice my concerns in what I hope is appropriate manner.

No worries, I get it, you are worried, a lot of people are. I don't know why I'm not, but for some reason I just don't care about this decision.

 

[vanin]

Either way - not knowing what exactly is Paradox's plan nor how it will be in practice - take a look at this before you finalize anything. EA's "Project Ten Dollar" is so annoying for so many reasons.
http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/project-ten-dollar

 

[unmerged(1823)]

Sometimes i think life would be easier if I were evil..

 

[raw]

 

[vanin]

Sometimes i think life would be easier if I were evil..

Just saying that you should try and screw Game and Gamestop (and whatever other retailers there are) over instead
edit: Not implying that these changes would screw us customers at all, I frankly don't know yet, I was just paraphrasing Extra Credits on that one.

 

[Txini]

But our expansions are almost always download only anyway, so your situation would be unchanged.

Not in Spain, at least most are still sold in physical format...and also more expensive...

 

[John Forseti]

I get what you're saying about selling the game used. I really do, and I'm not trying to sound like a P'dox fanboy, I just really don't see why any developer would want that to happen. I get trying to get new people to try the tgame, that's what sales, demos, reviews, and advertising are for. But having the game (which as you've stated can be copied at ease) circulate without any cashflow to P'dox is simply not good.

The Video Games industry seems to be the only idustry with this kind of entitlement complex. Can you imagine if a car manufacturer said that if you buy one of their cars used you'd have to pay them £50 in order to get access to the air conditioning or something? I find this particularly odd when the industry is one of the few that not only hasn't shrunk but expanded during and since the massive economic meltdown in the last couple of years, and paradox in particular seem to be doing extremely well for themselves. Saying piracy and used games hurt sales is just plain poppycock.

Infact, looking at my icons, I think Paradox has gotten a good £150 atleast off me, and that probably never would have happened if someone I met at uni 4 years ago hadn't given me a cheeky copy of Europa Universalis 2.

 

[Ordo Impavidus]

They're not screwing anyone. Why won't people just understand that the changes are coming because it is necessary?

The decision has been made and the process will go as planned.

Accept it. The sooner you do, the better you'll feel.

Peace through submission.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

Sometimes i think life would be easier if I were evil..

Johan is getting lured to the Dark Side

Not in Spain, at least most are still sold in physical format...and also more expensive...

Boxed copies of the expansions? I thought they literally did not exist anymore.

 

[Stratagyfan101]

Consider me concerned. I will wait and see before I form a public opinion.