CK2 Dev Diary #86 - Character View Redux

CK2 Dev Diary #86 - Character View Redux

  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

rageair

Design
43 Badges
Sep 10, 2011
1.764
2.900
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • War of the Vikings
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • War of the Roses
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Greetings!

Today I’d like to show off the new Character View, which we affectionately refer to as the ‘Redux’ version. The old Character View, despite having been redone several times already, was still plagued by not having enough space for the various elements (traits, in particular) and having random buttons floating all over the interface (Leading Troops Toggle, Artifacts, Barber Shop, etc). Our primary goal has been to free up space and facilitate the addition of new buttons, and here’s the result:

DDCharView_YourCharacter.png


This is how the Character View for your own character will look. As you can see, a lot of things have been reshuffled to create more space. We’ve kept in mind that certain habits are hard to break, so some of the more commonly used things are still in their original place, e.g. the ‘Arrange Marriage’ button, and the information you need at a glance is in the same general area as it used to be, e.g. the Levy Size number. We’ve replaced the text with icons, and all icons now also have tooltips - this means that, unlike before, we actually explain the concepts of the various lists you see, such as what the difference between a Trait and a Modifier is.

Some elements have been removed, such as the ‘Dynasty Tree’ button, as clicking the Dynasty Shield itself fulfilled the exact same function.

The old ‘Combat modifiers’ icon (the two crossed swords) have been replaced by a new icon (orange with a sword and chess piece) in order to make it more clear that you can hover it to see useful information. We’ve also added a similar button that shows the total effects of any Artifacts a character has (yellow with a goblet and helmet). This icon is also visible in character lists, making it useful for tracking down characters which hold artifacts on their persona.

We’ve also exposed the Personal Combat Skill value of characters in the list of skills. More on this in a future DD, but rest assured that it’ll have an enhanced impact on your gameplay experience!

To preserve some sense of mystery I’ve censored some of the buttons pertaining to expansion features using pictures of confused ducks, I’ll go into more detail on what the buttons entail in later DD’s.

This is how it looks when viewing another character:
DDCharView_OtherChar.png

As you can see, it’s similar to the other view although with more censored buttons. The main difference, which may take some time to adjust to, is the new location of the Plot button - though it is now in a way more convenient location overall.

We’ve tried to shuffle as much information as possible to the right of the view, in order to make it easier to get the information you need at a glance - Active diplomacy (such as wars), levy numbers and stats are all lined up and easy to view.

While we don’t expect everyone to instantly embrace the new layout, we did it out of necessity and managed to use the space we had available in a very effective way - and after having spent months using it internally, I don’t believe there’s a single one of us in the Dev Team that could go back to the old layout. :)
 

AjayAlcos

...( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)...
71 Badges
Feb 14, 2015
894
916
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
To preserve some sense of mystery I’ve censored some of the buttons pertaining to expansion features using pictures of confused ducks, I’ll go into more detail on what the buttons entail in later DD’s.
What the duck?
 

Grim Deadman

Great Drungary of the Imperial Wine Cellar
61 Badges
Jan 26, 2012
238
57
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
Looks nice, however, honestly, I expected more "meat" from today's DD.
 

Memoryofthelost

Major
91 Badges
Jul 1, 2013
577
534
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • BATTLETECH - Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • BATTLETECH: Heavy Metal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
Dang I was hoping for information on the new pagan reformation mechanics... :(
 

Weyird

Captain
46 Badges
Sep 27, 2017
376
217
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
We'll file this under, "quality of life features."

Free update feature or paid expansion feature?
 

benjaseth

Major
38 Badges
Jun 7, 2015
508
165
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
Maybe switch the placement of the barbershop + not lead army button line with the Ambition, Focus and Plot line? Having the three later in the center of the menu and near to the inventory would be nice.

Edit: Confused duck says no.
 

benjaseth

Major
38 Badges
Jun 7, 2015
508
165
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
Oh and something else I have wanted for a long time: Maybe make it so you convert, aka change religion by clicking on the religion symbol, instead of having to use: Events menu, local province menu AND personal diplomacy / concubine menu.
 

_Perun_

Colonel
1 Badges
Apr 1, 2016
968
374
  • Crusader Kings II
Great!
Could you also, please, make more room for children? 10-15 years of intensive seduction and that part of the screen becomes incomprehensible and a nightmare to navigate through. Two rows would do but you could also add a toggleable button to show/hide dead relatives.
 

Awesomekaj

Recruit
66 Badges
May 19, 2016
7
0
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis III
  • PDXCON 2018 "The Baron"
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury Pre-order
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • PDXCon 2019 "Baron"
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Victoria 2
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
I’ve censored some of the buttons pertaining to expansion features using pictures of confused ducks, I’ll go into more detail on what the buttons entail in later DD’s.
I dare you to find an actual use for the 'confused duck' in the UI.

Also, that's a lot of confused ducks (so hopefully a lot of features).
 

SkyGreen24

Second Lieutenant
20 Badges
Nov 17, 2017
133
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Magicka 2: Ice, Death and Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
This looks pretty neat, although one thing confuses me...
Why did you cover the bloodlines button with a confused duck even though the previous dev diary shows it to be right next to the artifact one?
 

benjaseth

Major
38 Badges
Jun 7, 2015
508
165
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome Gold
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
Add a new sub-button aka Court, Relations and Pacts that show Children only (in addition to having children on the Family screen)? That way you could have three rows with children, showing all of them, even if you are a fecund polygamous Caliph.
 

Furleppe

Capitaneus Prussiae Generalis
83 Badges
Feb 26, 2011
329
424
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Prison Architect
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Magicka 2
  • Victoria 2
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
Excited for personal combat ability improvements! New duel system?
 
Last edited:

Cjmac

Horse Consul
27 Badges
Dec 13, 2015
2
0
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Impire
it looks good

but could the stats be flipped with army size , gold etc?

i think it would look better with all the stats right next to dynasty shield.
 

Bistrus

Recruit
14 Badges
Nov 23, 2014
9
0
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Naval War: Arctic Circle
  • Victoria 2
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • War of the Roses
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
How it look like when you have a LOT of traits and modifiers? Right now it gets quite messy