CK2 Dev Diary #69: Another Journey to Tibet

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hare-boxer

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Theocrats owning castles would not be playable... They didn't add Tibet to make it completelly unplayable.

Also the Sakya are basically this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakya#Feudal_lordship_over_Tibet

Also Sakya didn't had Open Electice. It was a dynasty:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Tibet#Sakya_lamas.5B3.5D

It was the Khön family which were hereditary abbots of Sakya. And they had a feudal government over Tibet. It's exactly what Paradox is implementing with Monastic Feudalism.

Well, you make a very good point that they shouldn't make it so that Tibet is all unplayable theocrats. However, you've made me realize that what I'm talking about is a bit of a half-of-one, dozen-the-other situation. After all, this is a new government type, not "Feudal" or "Theocrat" per se, so there's no reason I need to look at it as Feudal +monasteries rather than Theocrat +castles. I guess what I'm suggesting, then, is mostly cosmetic. Monastic Feudal rulers should have theocrat garb. They should coexist with per se feudal rulers rather than with per se theocrat rulers. A b_ level theocrat who is granted a county should become Monastic Feudal, while a baron granted a county should remain Feudal. But in any event, Monastic Fuedal should still be playable, just as Merchant Republics are playable even though normal republics aren't.

The nephew inheritance thing would be fun to see. All it really requires is not a new succession law, but simply a tendency for Monastic Feudal rulers to gain the celibate trait. I suppose it should also privilege unmarried characters for inheritance; that might require tweaking the succession law a little.
 

SchwarzKatze

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Well, you make a very good point that they shouldn't make it so that Tibet is all unplayable theocrats. However, you've made me realize that what I'm talking about is a bit of a half-of-one, dozen-the-other situation. After all, this is a new government type, not "Feudal" or "Theocrat" per se, so there's no reason I need to look at it as Feudal +monasteries rather than Theocrat +castles. I guess what I'm suggesting, then, is mostly cosmetic. Monastic Feudal rulers should have theocrat garb. They should coexist with per se feudal rulers rather than with per se theocrat rulers. A b_ level theocrat who is granted a county should become Monastic Feudal, while a baron granted a county should remain Feudal. But in any event, Monastic Fuedal should still be playable, just as Merchant Republics are playable even though normal republics aren't.

The nephew inheritance thing would be fun to see. All it really requires is not a new succession law, but simply a tendency for Monastic Feudal rulers to gain the celibate trait. I suppose it should also privilege unmarried characters for inheritance; that might require tweaking the succession law a little.
Let's get this straight: Celibacy is not required in Tibetan (and Japanese) Buddhism.
 

yourworstnightm

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Well, you make a very good point that they shouldn't make it so that Tibet is all unplayable theocrats. However, you've made me realize that what I'm talking about is a bit of a half-of-one, dozen-the-other situation. After all, this is a new government type, not "Feudal" or "Theocrat" per se, so there's no reason I need to look at it as Feudal +monasteries rather than Theocrat +castles. I guess what I'm suggesting, then, is mostly cosmetic. Monastic Feudal rulers should have theocrat garb. They should coexist with per se feudal rulers rather than with per se theocrat rulers. A b_ level theocrat who is granted a county should become Monastic Feudal, while a baron granted a county should remain Feudal. But in any event, Monastic Fuedal should still be playable, just as Merchant Republics are playable even though normal republics aren't.

The nephew inheritance thing would be fun to see. All it really requires is not a new succession law, but simply a tendency for Monastic Feudal rulers to gain the celibate trait. I suppose it should also privilege unmarried characters for inheritance; that might require tweaking the succession law a little.
The only dynasty that actually tried to seriously combine the dynastic kingship with the role of lamas were the Phagmadrupas. And they indeed had a system where it was the role of the Lama- king's brothers to sire the next generation of the dynasty. Not really worthy to make a new system for one dynasty, although it would be very interesting. All other Tibetan dynasties were just dynasties.
 

Orinsul

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chinas off the cards
we could always hope for some burma sneaking in
tibet joining adds the potential for alittle burma
 

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Let's get this straight: Celibacy is not required in Tibetan (and Japanese) Buddhism.

As far as Tibetan Buddhism goes, isn't it only the Nyingmapa that allow for non-celibate monks, while the other schools don't? And Nyingma didn't have the same level of political organization that say, the Sakya had. So maybe Nyingma initiation could be an interesting trait a secular Tibetan ruler could pick up, but it would be the exception rather than the norm.
 

SchwarzKatze

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As far as Tibetan Buddhism goes, isn't it only the Nyingmapa that allow for non-celibate monks, while the other schools don't? And Nyingma didn't have the same level of political organization that say, the Sakya had. So maybe Nyingma initiation could be an interesting trait a secular Tibetan ruler could pick up, but it would be the exception rather than the norm.
Sakya didn't have celibacy requirements either, at least for its heads.
 

hare-boxer

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Let's get this straight: Celibacy is not required in Tibetan (and Japanese) Buddhism.

Celibacy is required for monks, and many but not all lamas are monks. Certainly the Dalai Lamas, the Panchens, and usually the Karmapas are expected to take monastic vows and be celibate.

The only dynasty that actually tried to seriously combine the dynastic kingship with the role of lamas were the Phagmadrupas. And they indeed had a system where it was the role of the Lama- king's brothers to sire the next generation of the dynasty. Not really worthy to make a new system for one dynasty, although it would be very interesting. All other Tibetan dynasties were just dynasties.

I always thought the Sakyas had a similar system, but maybe I'm wrong. Looking at the list of Top Sakyas, it seems like there's a lot of uncle-to-nephew inheritance, but maybe that's a coincidence, their sons didn't survive or were usurped. Anyway, I think it would be fun to see in game and would require very little new mechanics.
 

Thure

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Celibacy is required for monks, and many but not all lamas are monks. Certainly the Dalai Lamas, the Panchens, and usually the Karmapas are expected to take monastic vows and be celibate.

Beside the Karmpa all of them are outside of the Game Timeline.
 

_Perun_

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chinas off the cards
we could always hope for some burma sneaking in
tibet joining adds the potential for alittle burma
I would rather hope for Indochina. Water, islands, hinduism, potential for merchant republics.
 

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How does independence fix anything? Instead of bordergore, half of Western Europe becomes an assortment of independent duchies and counties instead.

The real problem is vassal and demesne assignment under gavelkind.

Linguistically, Encyclopedia Iranica doesn't mention any special link between then beyond being in the Eastern Iranian group, and the attested cognates in Khotanese and Ossetian mentioned within fall pretty safely into the mutually unintelligible zone.
http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/eastern-iranian-languages

Actually, what are the historical sources that associate the nomadic Saka with the sedentary Khotanese? The wordings of Wikipedia led me to assume that some contemporary Chinese histories mention it, but after Ctrl+F through the sections about "the West" in Records of the Grand Historian, Book of Han, Book of Later Han, Book of Sui, Old Book of Tang, and New Book of Tang, while all of which except the first mention Khotan, I was surprised to find that only the Book of Han mentions the Sək (塞) people at all.

In the Book of Han, the said people was said to have lived northwest of Shule ( = Kashgar, at the far western end of the Tarim Basin) before it splintered, and the two states identified as remnants of the Sək were said to live in valleys in/by the Pamir Mountains and were nomadic. Meanwhile, Khotan was already a country with 3,300 households and 19,300 people, which makes it the second most populous country mentioned in the Tarim Basin, but with no mentions of any connection with the Sək people.

Perhaps some Persian account does connect Khotan and the Saka, but unfortunately I know no Farsi so it's a dead end. I don't think the Greeks, the other source of many contemporary records, knew Khotan either.

塞種 Sək was only shortly mentioned as a nomadic race that meet by Yuezhi in their migration in Chinese historical source. there is no connection between khotanese and saka that recorded by Chinese. the reason might be morden linguistic research. Due to the original khotanese culture was ruined by karakhanid, archaeologists didn't name the language from the local name.
I think that the link between the nomadic Scythians and the sedentary Saka of the Tarim comes from comparison of their archaeological cultures.
 

yourworstnightm

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Celibacy is required for monks, and many but not all lamas are monks. Certainly the Dalai Lamas, the Panchens, and usually the Karmapas are expected to take monastic vows and be celibate.



I always thought the Sakyas had a similar system, but maybe I'm wrong. Looking at the list of Top Sakyas, it seems like there's a lot of uncle-to-nephew inheritance, but maybe that's a coincidence, their sons didn't survive or were usurped. Anyway, I think it would be fun to see in game and would require very little new mechanics.
Didn't the Sakyas had a somewhat elective system?
 

Karlingid

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I think that the link between the nomadic Scythians and the sedentary Saka of the Tarim comes from comparison of their archaeological cultures.

One might imagine it in CK2 terms as essentially the Saka "settling as feudal" in the Tarim, while the Alans have yet to.

I saw a suggestion for a Scythian portrait pack earlier, including within it Sogdians and Tocharians. Honestly, that'd be pretty cool. Getting a unique paganism would be cool too, but obviously low priority.
 

insoman

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One might imagine it in CK2 terms as essentially the Saka "settling as feudal" in the Tarim, while the Alans have yet to.
At least in 769 scythians lived in neither east steppe which completed turkification since gokturk nor west steppe under khazar's rule unless ossetians, to let you settling as feudal in game.
The eastern iranian nomadic people on western steppe are suggested to turkify since the foundation of khazar yabgu state.
Khotanese had their thousand years long kingdom and variety culture of their own. They do not have aithentic linkage between these nomads except they are both in eastern iranian subgroup. you know, afghani does either.
 
Last edited:

Karlingid

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At least in 769 scythians lived in neither east steppe which completed turkification since gokturk nor west steppe under khazar's rule unless ossetians, to let you settling as feudal in game.
The eastern iranian nomadic people on western steppe are suggested to turkify since the foundation of khazar yabgu state.
Khotanese had their thousand years long kingdom and variety culture of their own. They do not have aithentic linkage between these nomads except they are both in eastern iranian subgroup. you know, afghani does either.

"Scythian" is a broad term referring to a relatively diverse nomadic Iranian people inhabiting the Eurasian steppe. In antiquity, they were known across most of the steppe, with Turks and Mongols being in Mongolia. By late antiquity, they were reduced with westward Turkic migrations. The "Sarmatians", the westernmost groups of Scythians, remained and became the Alans, who eventually became the Ossetians.

There were, however, Eastern Scythians. Also called Indo-Scythians, this group settled in the Indo-Kush and in the Tarim Basin, notably leaving behind a linguistic impression in the latter. The people here spoke a language we now call Saka, and by all contemporary sources were identified as Scythians contemporary to the Alans and with a Scythian-dominated steppe in recent memory. Seeing how wide and vast an area the Scythians covered, it is theorized that the Scythian language, in antiquity, was a vast dialect continuum. Here, one dialect on the west may not be at all comprehensible to one on the east, but the various dialects between them would show similarities to both over a gradual change over area.

Thus, the Saka language is derived from the far Eastern dialect of Scythian, whereas the Ossetic/Alanian tongue is from the far western dialect. Although great distinction can be found between Saka and Ossetic, where the latter shows a much much greater affinity for the brief Scythian inscriptions found from antiquity, the former Eastern dialect can still be reliably traced to the older Scythian language. It is thus presented that the dialect of the west was much more conservative, whereas the Eastern dialect became more rapidly changing, potentially influenced by the larger and organized states near to it.

While the relation to Pashto or Sogdian is more debatable other than both being Iranian and not Western Iranian, the affinity between Ossetic and Saka is much stronger. The two show a genetic relationship, not only in their form but also in the writings of basically every single group that had written language and knew what Scythians were.

It is not entirely clear when Scythians entered the Tarim Basin. Some suggest a later date of settlement, while others suggest a date even before the founding of Khotan itself. In the former case, it is well understood that they overtook, at bare minimum linguistically, the original (possibly Tocharian or Indian) inhabitants, while in the latter case they were the founding population and abandoned pastoral nomadism. This is no trouble, really, as language is generally not defined by a particular system of government or way of life- the Irish farmer might speak English all the same as the factory owner in South Africa. The people of modern Turkey speak a Turkic language, yet are themselves not nomads and didn't even displace the Greeks who already lived in the region.

Thus, the comparison is apt. The Saka are descended, at bare minimum linguistically and/or culturally, from Scythians. These Scythians settled in the Tarim Basin and adopted a way of life regarding around permanent settlement and agriculture. This is in contrast to the Scythians on the other side of the steppe, the Alans, who remained as pastoral nomads very distinct from Turkic populations like the Khazars, Bolghars, and Cumans. Though the Alans would eventually likewise settle down permanently, this is not the case as of 769. As in 769, both Alan and Saka cultures are present, both of which have a recognized connection to the older pastoral nomad population known as Scythians as recorded by their contemporaries, and whose affiliation, however distant, is generally accepted, then it is a fair comparison to say that the Saka have taken, in the terms of the game Crusader Kings 2, the decision to "settle as feudal", while the Alans have not.
 

yourworstnightm

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If so it was tanistry. The Sakya rulers were al related to each other. Brothers, nephews, sons

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Tibet#Sakya_lamas.5B3.5D
The Sakyas are very interesting, and I have not thought about them much as a dynasty, though they of course were all related. Their authority came from Three different offices, that of the Lama, that of the Dishi (basically their emissary at the Great Khan's Court), and that of the Ponchen (governor).