CK2 Conclave 2.5.2 bug report - imperial administration fail

[pesachyonah]

I was going happily along trying to play the ERE in Conclave as the Isaurians. And then my viceroys started doing really obnoxious things.

First - in order to get around Conclave's newly reduced vassal limits, I've taken to giving my strategoi multiple viceregal titles. So I had one vassal who was strategos of Athens, Achaia, Thessalonika, Epiros, and the Aegean Isles. And then, with only one actual county to his name, this dude creates the Kingdom of Greece as an inheritable feudal title.

Second - Levan of Abkhazia starts out with both counties in his viceregal duchy along with Lazike. Shortly after my presumptive Greek multi-strategos created the Kingdom of Greece, Levan outright *usurped* the Duchy of Abkhazia. Luckily the Emperor gets a claim on it, so I revoked the duchy forthwith, but the net result is a -60 malus that wasn't supposed to be there.

Has anyone else playing 2.5.2 experienced this absurdity? I thought viceroys couldn't pull these sort of stunts by definition.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Neither are bugs, as far as i know. Viceroys are not blocked from creating dejure titles.
The usurping i'm not sure. One used to have to fight for it, as long as the title is hold by the liege.

Also: https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?forums/crusader-kings-ii-bug-reports.680/
edit: Though for discussing it it's fine here.

The malus is probably related to your council (with Conclave), but i don't know enough about that.

 

[pesachyonah]

Yes, the viceroys can create titles, but until now, I've only seen it when they actually own enough counties to create a feudal duchy or enough feudal duchies to create a kingdom. Like I said, this guy only owned 1 county title. I didn't vest him with a bunch of life estates to see him create a kingdom of his own. That completely flies in the face of what an imperial administration is supposed to accomplish, IMHO. And if that's a feature, not a bug, than it takes the ERE under Conclave from being trickier due to the reduced vassal limit to being outright unplayable.

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Like I said, this guy only owned 1 county title.

He had vassals, as such enough land under his control to create the title, as least the way you describe it.

 

[Thure]

Yes, the viceroys can create titles, but until now, I've only seen it when they actually own enough counties to create a feudal duchy or enough feudal duchies to create a kingdom. Like I said, this guy only owned 1 county title. I didn't vest him with a bunch of life estates to see him create a kingdom of his own. That completely flies in the face of what an imperial administration is supposed to accomplish, IMHO. And if that's a feature, not a bug, than it takes the ERE under Conclave from being trickier due to the reduced vassal limit to being outright unplayable.

As Aardvark said. Vassals. His own vassals count to his realm size.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

It's still dumb. An appointed viceroy who names himself a hereditary king is a rebel and a traitor, and we should at least have cause to imprison and revoke, if he isn't required to start a war in the first place in order to get his kingdom.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Don't be petulant about it when you could have easily made and held the Kingdom of Greece title yourself with no penalties, especially considering Thrace and Nikaea are in it anyways. Pretty sure they cannot usurp the primary title (in this case by tiers Constantinople, Thrace, Greece, Byzantine Empire) if the holder has lands in it. TLDR Make Greece.

Your aversion to viceroyal kings is questionable. Viceroyal kings are easier to handle than viceroy dukes, and when you get large enough you're going to have vassals who are multiple king holders anyways.

Playing as a viceroyal vassal is power limiting enough as it is.

The second one occurs if they own the de jure land and you hold the title for too long. Since you hold it as a "duchy," when they usurp it they get the "duchy." If you give it to someone else it becomes a Theme (viceroyalty,) and if they choose to usurp it then they'll usurp it as a "theme."

To sum it up the entire reason he has a duchy title instead of a theme title was because you dropped the ball somewhere down the line and kept the title for too long. Offload that title as soon as the old owner dies, whether it be to him or someone else. Those inheritance pop-ups are not just for show.

 

[ragnarok246]

Don't be petulant about it when you could have easily made and held the Kingdom of Greece title yourself with no penalties

You've obviously never done this or you'd know that holding a kingdom as Byzantine or Roman emperor causes succession issues, even with primogeniture.

Born in the Purple only works with those two empire titles. Kingdoms completely ignore it.

 

[Simmy93]

I'm confused as to what you're confused about? Viceroys are just temporary Kings, it doesn't mean they are temporary dukes or counts. If you want viceroy dukedoms then apply that law and do so, if not appoint your Viceroys in such a way that they cannot benefit themselves, (and by all means appoint another person as viceroy when they're gone.)

Its maddness, especially as the Roman Empire, to claim its ridiculous that Viceroys cannot act on their own ambition considering how Rome was run by provincial governors who did exactly that. Make someone Viceroy of Gaul and then tell them they're a damn traitor. You lose Gaul. As Emperor you should have created those duchies yourself, given them doux and then made one Viceroy, rather than letting him form the Kingdom himself.

Viceroys are not meant to just be an easy way around losing Kingdom titles and keeping vassal limits down, they are vassal kings at the end of the day. And... "I am a King! ------"

 

[King Anund]

You've obviously never done this or you'd know that holding a kingdom as Byzantine or Roman emperor causes succession issues, even with primogeniture.

Born in the Purple only works with those two empire titles. Kingdoms completely ignore it.

That's why the Despot Honorary title exists.

 

[Dragatus]

Alternatively you can also use Ultimogeniture succession. I've found I actually like it better than Primogeniture when running an eugenics program. If first son isn't a Genius, keep at it until you get one that is. And once you have a Genius heir you can excommunicate and imprison the wife to prevent getting anymore kids that would muck up succession.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

It's especially useful as Byzantine Emporer since you can get a divorce at will, with the only penalty being that your siblings hate you more than they would in primogeniture. Not that they'd like you anyways in primo.

 

[ragnarok246]

That's why the Despot Honorary title exists.

Good luck handing that to a grandson who has taken his dead fathers' place in the line of succession.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/succession-help.886686/


Also, that can't be given to daughters, so if you have female heir and pretenders (not that rare that your first kids are female) and the first born daughter isn't purple... enjoy your pseudo-gavelkind succession and losing all of k_greece to a hereditary queen who hates your guts because you hold d_thrace that should rightfully be hers.