CK Rookie: My council is literally retarded.

[Facarwi]

Hi guys.

So I have about 40 hours in CK 2 so I'm still a rookie. I have a lot to learn and up front will admit that one hundred percent. I have spent close to another 10 just watching other people play to learn as much as possible.

I am struggling hard with the game. Lets run through what normally happens in a game for me and I am honestly not over exaggerating. Being new and following almost every recommendation there is I choose a independent count on Ireland at 1066. The game generates and instantly I feel the desire to jump of a cliff.

I look at my Character to see what stats generated, decent, some are 1 and 2s but no one is born perfect then I look at my council and my Chancellor has a diplomacy level of 3, he literally has a higher chance to piss someone off then fabricate a claim.

I continue down the list and find my Steward has a score of 0. Tits on a bull would be far more useful at this stage. Problem is both of them are vassals that despite having stats that mean they have the intelligence of a infant are able to comprehend social convention and feel offended when fired and then are able to organize a faction while also being unable to button their shirt. They literally have a higher chance to be killed and yet want the job so bad they are willing to revolt for the right to... in all likely hood, die.

So I look in find a character and cannot invite anyone decent, so I try and generate a few nobles paying over and over, I might get lucky with a decent steward but overall my council looks like a reject bin. At this stage my vassals are super pissed, everyone refuses to pass any kind of law so after getting married and handing out titles to improve relations the start of my game is always increase speed to max and waiting for a miracle.

Now that might sound like I am complaining... and I am, but that is honestly how the first 40 hours of gameplay has been over 8 or so starts, I look at fans celebrating the deep immersive strategy involved but I cannot seem to curb the games innate desire to bend me over before I even get to the "game". The worst part is I am losing clearly from RNG over and over, Its not like I expanded too fast or bit off more then i can chew all I have done so far is start the game, I am yet to get to a leader dying (other then dying from being ill in one start 5 years in while waiting for something to happen). So far my experience has not been great, it feels like I have to cater to every little whim while having no authority of my own.

If I do as much as fart in the wrong direction the Council will hang me, yet they can sit there eating my food, drinking my whine not doing their job for decades and still have the right apparently to be super pissed when fired because they have failed on every account to deliver any kind of result.

I cannot understand how things are going so bad for me, so many times I get hours into a playthrough and nothing has happened apart from being systematically destroyed by my own family or court. I want to feel pain, I want the Crusader experience of marrying sisters to Tyrants, Brothers fighting for power, Creating the Kingdom of Ireland and then watching it fall apart as bothers bicker and plot to kill each other, but I cannot get that far.

I don't know maybe I have the pacing wrong and its meant to take generations to get even close to getting a Duchy, but again after watching playthroughs of earlier versions they seem to be doing it within one or two lifetimes. mind you they roll councils with 10's or there abouts.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

Turn off the Conclave DLC and see if that makes your life easier.

 

[KelrynGrey]

If you're starting as a count it can take a little time to get rolling. You'll have to settle for advisors with mediocre stats at certain points. You don't have to worry about mayors or clergymen being angry they're not on the council, because they don't actively revolt unless you give them a reason - such as a failed imprisonment.

Use your piety to recruit some new holy men, that can help you out with some of the positions. Get a new commander or two if you can, you have an acceptable chance of getting someone with a decent martial stat that way. Wait for events to fire that give you good courtiers - the Hindustani event can be a boon at times, or you'll get a guy with a 6 stewardship instead. Jewish courtiers can be great, but beware of a zealot spymaster and NEVER land them, except sometimes I'll give them a mayorship when I feel like doing some roleplaying.

Conclave has not changed how fast you can expand, it's all luck based. It's the worst thing about CK, when compared to Europa Universalis. Got a 22 diplomacy guy working to fabricate claims? Good luck, you'll either knock them out or sit for a decade with no joy.

 

[Facarwi]

If you're starting as a count it can take a little time to get rolling. You'll have to settle for advisors with mediocre stats at certain points. You don't have to worry about mayors or clergymen being angry they're not on the council, because they don't actively revolt unless you give them a reason - such as a failed imprisonment.

Use your piety to recruit some new holy men, that can help you out with some of the positions. Get a new commander or two if you can, you have an acceptable chance of getting someone with a decent martial stat that way. Wait for events to fire that give you good courtiers - the Hindustani event can be a boon at times, or you'll get a guy with a 6 stewardship instead. Jewish courtiers can be great, but beware of a zealot spymaster and NEVER land them, except sometimes I'll give them a mayorship when I feel like doing some roleplaying.

Conclave has not changed how fast you can expand, it's all luck based. It's the worst thing about CK, when compared to Europa Universalis. Got a 22 diplomacy guy working to fabricate claims? Good luck, you'll either knock them out or sit for a decade with no joy.

Thanks both for the reply, I tried and disabled conclave and wow I got all members with 10 or higher. I did post while frustrated but I also standby what I said, however I do feel maybe watching a super recent conclave lets play might help as conclave could of shifted the focus and pacing of the game. I still feel the Council is unbalanced, they can and do get super pissy about whatever they like but I have to bite my tongue if they are incompetent.

I think Ill disable conclave but I do like the overall direction seen in 2.5.2, then I'll try again down the road with more knowledge and a fresh outlook.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

Live with what you get, fire unlanded council members at will. Keep firing that one position until you get the desired guy. This desired guy is the chancellor.

The only council member you need with any form of competence is the guy who fabricates claims.

If you are not up for a slow start, as I've mentioned before the Duke of Apulia is an excellent beginner start. Provides a ton of offensive action right off the bat. You don't really have any threats either what with HRE having little interest south of Italy and the Byzantines too preoccupied with the impending loss of Anatolia. Kingdom of Sicily is a few Holy Wars away, with the rest of the de jure land being held by weak independent counts.

 

[Yeekim]

Got a 22 diplomacy guy working to fabricate claims? Good luck, you'll either knock them out or sit for a decade with no joy.

It is recommended that you recall and reassign him from time to time. You've probably seen the event that gives you an option to try to bribe or kill enemy chancellor. The AI gets those too. If 22 diplo guy goes for years with no success, he has likely been bought.

 

[PK_AZ]

Being new and following almost every recommendation there is I choose a independent count on Ireland at 1066.

Honestly I don't get that whole "play as some one county minor, it's good for beginners". Independent kingdom / vassal duchy simply give you more options - and sometimes you can even deus vult your neighbor land, instead of fabricating claims.
From my experience, as count you will have advisors with not-so-good stats. The bigger you are, the more vassals you have, the higher chances to get at least one guy with 16+ stat are. Pre-Conclave at least.

 

[Sonmi]

Hi guys.

So I have about 40 hours in CK 2 so I'm still a rookie. I have a lot to learn and up front will admit that one hundred percent. I have spent close to another 10 just watching other people play to learn as much as possible.

I am struggling hard with the game. Lets run through what normally happens in a game for me and I am honestly not over exaggerating. Being new and following almost every recommendation there is I choose a independent count on Ireland at 1066. The game generates and instantly I feel the desire to jump of a cliff.

I look at my Character to see what stats generated, decent, some are 1 and 2s but no one is born perfect then I look at my council and my Chancellor has a diplomacy level of 3, he literally has a higher chance to piss someone off then fabricate a claim.

I continue down the list and find my Steward has a score of 0. Tits on a bull would be far more useful at this stage. Problem is both of them are vassals that despite having stats that mean they have the intelligence of a infant are able to comprehend social convention and feel offended when fired and then are able to organize a faction while also being unable to button their shirt. They literally have a higher chance to be killed and yet want the job so bad they are willing to revolt for the right to... in all likely hood, die.

So I look in find a character and cannot invite anyone decent, so I try and generate a few nobles paying over and over, I might get lucky with a decent steward but overall my council looks like a reject bin. At this stage my vassals are super pissed, everyone refuses to pass any kind of law so after getting married and handing out titles to improve relations the start of my game is always increase speed to max and waiting for a miracle.

Now that might sound like I am complaining... and I am, but that is honestly how the first 40 hours of gameplay has been over 8 or so starts, I look at fans celebrating the deep immersive strategy involved but I cannot seem to curb the games innate desire to bend me over before I even get to the "game". The worst part is I am losing clearly from RNG over and over, Its not like I expanded too fast or bit off more then i can chew all I have done so far is start the game, I am yet to get to a leader dying (other then dying from being ill in one start 5 years in while waiting for something to happen). So far my experience has not been great, it feels like I have to cater to every little whim while having no authority of my own.

If I do as much as fart in the wrong direction the Council will hang me, yet they can sit there eating my food, drinking my whine not doing their job for decades and still have the right apparently to be super pissed when fired because they have failed on every account to deliver any kind of result.

I cannot understand how things are going so bad for me, so many times I get hours into a playthrough and nothing has happened apart from being systematically destroyed by my own family or court. I want to feel pain, I want the Crusader experience of marrying sisters to Tyrants, Brothers fighting for power, Creating the Kingdom of Ireland and then watching it fall apart as bothers bicker and plot to kill each other, but I cannot get that far.

I don't know maybe I have the pacing wrong and its meant to take generations to get even close to getting a Duchy, but again after watching playthroughs of earlier versions they seem to be doing it within one or two lifetimes. mind you they roll councils with 10's or there abouts.

If you're a count-level character, you can replace your councillors with impunity, baron-tier characters cannot revolt by themselves anyways.

Expanding early as a Christian surrounded by other Christians is bound to take some time as you do not have any guaranteed CBs. Considering you start in Ireland, a possible way to go would be to start saving money, try to turn heretic (either by the theology focus, your court chaplain researching cultural techs, or simply having your child be educated by a heretic with the faith or heritage focus) and blitzkrieg one province nations with mercenaries. It's luck dependent as well, but I'd say less so than the standard claim fabricating business.

 

[Naughtius Maximus]

If you want to go heretic route I would send your heir off to some foreign ruler. Preferebly a pagan since you get the option to convert if holy warred (and you WILL have that happen as a weak count with Scotland and England in the vicinity.)

You can personally ask some scandinavian pagan to educate your child or look up mercenaries.

 

[Bernard95]

Like two other posters have mentioned already, Ireland might be known as "Tutorial Island", but in all seriousness it's much easier to play a duke or even a smaller king. Dukes within the HRE (Tuscany, Bavaria, and Bohemia all have strong starting positions) in particular have the same thing going for them as Irish minors since the empire's sheer size provides protection and isolation, but at least you'll have some income and troops to work with. Additionally, you'll have a better shot at the marriage/claimant game as well since rarely will someone agree to marry a mere count, but will marry up the feudal ladder.

For these reasons an Irish minor can be a rather deceptive start, plus if you don't get stuck on your first claim you might not even be able to it press it since your army may not even be of a sufficient size to do a siege- especially if the RNG doesn't favor your martial stat. To add insult to injury, should you manage to unite Ireland you won't have the levies to compete with your neighbors barring a war gone wrong or rebellion. If you are dead set on Ireland though, at least play as one of the dukes, the Count of Dublin (which is set to inherit Leceister), or the Count of Breifine (which always has a high martial stat).

 

[Rubidium]

Note that you can still invite claimants with decent stats (since you mentioned 1066, Raimond of Toulouse, a younger brother of the Duke of Toulouse, for instance, generally starts with an above average to excellent martial stat and a willingness to move, and is worth grabbing as a commander if nothing else).

Conclave tends to want you to use your powerful vassals as councillors, but note that that only really becomes an issue once you have vassals that are at least counts. If you have barons or even unlanded characters in your court, feel free to fire them and replace them with semi-competent rulers.

And I echo the suggestion for an HRE duke; it will be much more interesting and give you a better sense of the game. Once you get a firm grasp, you can move up or down (one of the Jimena brothers ruling Castile or Leon is a good intermediate challenge; the brother in Galicia tends to be a bit trickier) in starting location.

 

[Facarwi]

So. **Cough**. Um... My above post is so incredible wrong that I feel like a slow hunchback bastard.

So after posting this I turned off Conclave and even though my luck changed with better council members I felt defeated. It was eating me up and I couldn't stop thinking about my problem, "Stop being a bitch and think, what you're suggesting from a desgin perspective makes no sense". So later that night I sat down reinstalled Conclave and the latest patch and started fresh.

I stopped trying to fit a round peg in a square hole and instead strengthen my own personal land holdings first. Power commands respect and being King of Ireland with only own personal holding makes for a shaky foundation. My Dynasty starts with one County, a vassal who owns the County next door and a De Jure claim on the Duchy. So after setting up with marriage, focus and ambition I asked for council support and past the title revoke law and proceeded to usurp my Vassal, which led to me having his entire family in prison, which tied everything up rather neatly. From there I also worked on usurping the other county in my De Jure duchy so I could have a incredibly strong and reliable force to unite Ireland, now not one single Vassal would own enough land to revolt against me, multiple vassals would need to unite.

This took years and when I was done I had to wait for levies to reinforce as war had taken its toll, I knew I was running out of time being in my mid 50's so I changed succession laws to Primogeniture as letting my land be broken up could set my Dynasty back generations in its goal to unite Ireland. With the money I was amassing I spent it on improving my castles to give me even more troops, while also passing Crown Authority laws to strengthen my position over the years.

It was while I was waiting on a fabrication on my next county I planned to vassalize that I found out I apparently wasn't dying fast enough as my eldest son was plotting to kill me, feeling betrayed I threw him in the oubliette, even though I was getting old I felt I could that ungrateful bitch, I honestly felt betrayed instead of trying to unite Ireland under one weak banner I was handing him the means to unite Ireland on a silver platter. It was around this time that shit hit the fan even more and I remembered the outside world... It seems England had noticed my little ventures and saw me as a ripe tributary 10,000 vs 3,000 was no fight and instead of setting myself back even more I gave into his demands leaving my army in tact, I will not let my men die with no hope in hell of winning, it was around this I also wished I put more time into making bonds with marriage instead of marrying someone half a world away. About a year later my character died from stress (understandable) and I slowly saw my hard work being torn up over family strife...

IT WAS SO FUN. I decided to restart not because I felt I lost but because I have learnt so much already that I want to apply to a new game this time taking everyone advice playing a HRE duke. Next time the game presents a wall I won't imminently assume I am meant to climb it and look at all my options, originally I immediately pushed me De Jure Duchy claim and continued to push fabricated claims that simply amassed spiteful Vassals while leaving myself open by only personally owning a single county, as soon as I stopped looking so hard at mechanics I thought were unfair I saw the game for what it is and started to enjoy it almost immediately.

 

[MalfunctionM1Ke]

I was so irritated at first when I played conclave.
Strong Vassals that dont get a seat in the council literally eat you up after a while, starting factions and so on.
Basically you have live with what you get, putting those vassels in positions where they got their highest stats or at least install them as a advisor. (Which should otherwise always be someone who loves you to death)
You even could educate your vassals kids by someone who gives them good stats (I have read somewhere that an educator with two stats above 12 will give the kids a chance to become ambitious, but dont count me on that)

But yeah, having vassals with mediocre stats in your council is part of the game

Allthough an improvement would be to give you a popup when a vassal wants a seat on the council because you might miss it and your vassal is rotting apart silently, starting factions and stuff.

 

[Narvait]

With Conclave I can't into Emperor so easy... and I appreciate intrigue education on my Kings much more, as it helps to imprison/destroy bad vassals.

 

[Facarwi]

I was so irritated at first when I played conclave.
Strong Vassals that dont get a seat in the council literally eat you up after a while, starting factions and so on.
Basically you have live with what you get, putting those vassels in positions where they got their highest stats or at least install them as a advisor. (Which should otherwise always be someone who loves you to death)
You even could educate your vassals kids by someone who gives them good stats (I have read somewhere that an educator with two stats above 12 will give the kids a chance to become ambitious, but dont count me on that)

But yeah, having vassals with mediocre stats in your council is part of the game

Allthough an improvement would be to give you a popup when a vassal wants a seat on the council because you might miss it and your vassal is rotting apart silently, starting factions and stuff.

Yea, I am really getting into the game now, being so new and still learning about the time period I am reluctant to give my ideas of game mechanics but I do find it a little odd one of my vassals not only has to run his own holdings but potential spend years in neighboring lands fabricating claims or building spy networks on top of also coming back to vote on council matters. When I first read about conclave I thought it would be separate meaning I have my advisers and then my council members decide on laws that govern the realm.

Once I got my head around how it works however it becomes apart of the game and is overall fun as hell from that perspective. It would be cool if honorary titles soothed angry vassals by giving them titles and cushiony jobs full of luxuries.

 

[Apocal]

I am struggling hard with the game. Lets run through what normally happens in a game for me and I am honestly not over exaggerating. Being new and following almost every recommendation there is I choose a independent count on Ireland at 1066. The game generates and instantly I feel the desire to jump of a cliff.

Found your problem.

I don't know who or why people would recommend starting as a count. It is more difficult than starting a sovereign duke or king. You're literally one or two bad moves -- or unlucky draws at the event wheel -- from losing everything. Just take it a step higher. You will still get decidedly, hmm, sub-optimal specimens of the local nobility clamoring for seats at the table they don't deserve, but you will also have more options for dealing with them. Including one of the old standbys of simply waiting for them to mess up in a sufficiently offensive manner that you can revoke their title.

 

[RelVleDy]

It would be cool if honorary titles soothed angry vassals by giving them titles and cushiony jobs full of luxuries.

Honorary titles do improve relations, hence it soothes angry vassals. You can also improve relations by gifting them land, giving money, sending your children to them for education, and random stewardship way of life events where you can side with them on certain affairs, if they're landed. You can also invite them for carousing using the carousing way of life focus, but it generally only works on targets if their relations with you are 20 or higher. It can be huge, as there's a good chance you'll make friends with select targets, making them your friend and receiving a 100 relationship bonus with them.

The diplomacy stat, in general, also improves flat relations across the board, as does various traits, such as attractiveness (with the opposite sex).

 

[Hecaton]

Found your problem.

I don't know who or why people would recommend starting as a count. It is more difficult than starting a sovereign duke or king. You're literally one or two bad moves -- or unlucky draws at the event wheel -- from losing everything. Just take it a step higher. You will still get decidedly, hmm, sub-optimal specimens of the local nobility clamoring for seats at the table they don't deserve, but you will also have more options for dealing with them. Including one of the old standbys of simply waiting for them to mess up in a sufficiently offensive manner that you can revoke their title.

Or you could just play on 2.4.5. and the game works tons better.

 

[sumo0]

Honestly I don't get that whole "play as some one county minor, it's good for beginners". Independent kingdom / vassal duchy simply give you more options - and sometimes you can even deus vult your neighbor land, instead of fabricating claims.
From my experience, as count you will have advisors with not-so-good stats. The bigger you are, the more vassals you have, the higher chances to get at least one guy with 16+ stat are. Pre-Conclave at least.

I don't understand why people seem to agree so much that an irish count is such a good newbie start either.
IMO it is stupid advice since there are many other, much, much better beginnings for a newbie. Jorvik anyone?

As a count in ireland you just have to wait alot. Not the best selling point for a newbie.

Or you could just play on 2.4.5. and the game works tons better.

+1. All the nonsense that came with conclave is not fun.
Version 2.4.5 is the version to play.

 

[Dragatus]

Starting in 1066 is fine, but you should play one of the two petty kings, not an earl.

The concept of Ireland being "tutorial island" also dates back to the early versions of the game, when 1066 was the earliest start date and there were no tributary wars. Now the best start for a newbie is probably a duke in the HRE. Though the learning scenario as Alfonso of Leon is also a good choice.