Confirmed CK III - Can't "Revoke Lease" of foreign religion Holy Order in a county I conquered.

[mhuitt0000]

Short summary of your issue
Can't "Revoke Lease" of foreign religion Holy Order in a county I conquered.

Game Version
Newest Steam version with Royal Court

What OS are you playing on?
Windows

What platform are you using?
Steam

What DLC do you have installed?
Royal Court,

Do you have mods enabled?
No

Have you tried verifying your game files (Steam only)?
Yes

How much "pain" is this causing you?
2

Please explain the issue you experienced in the most condensed way possible
I conquered the County of Annandale (next to Galloway Duchy in England) from the Norse. There's only two developments allowed (barony and city). The barony is mine but the city belongs to the Viking Holy Order Jomsvikings. I have no option to remove them. There is no "Revoke Lease" next to the Grandmaster's portrait in the city view (as there is with the Order of Saint Patrick I have in other cities/baronies). So I'm stuck with them.

Please explain how to reproduce the issue
Conquer a county with a foreign religion Holy Order.

Is there anything else you think could help us identify/replicate the issue?


I have attached a save game
No

Upload Attachment
File(s) attached

 

[CivMasters]

Nope, only my faith's holy order appears in the list of baronies to revoke through a decision.

While holding the county, click the barony and there should be a golden X that allows you to revoke the lease.

That is not a solution to this problem. But is doable if, and only if, you are the holder of the county.

 

[SFtheGreat]

While holding the county, click the barony and there should be a golden X that allows you to revoke the lease.

That is not a solution to this problem. But is doable if, and only if, you are the holder of the county.

I was holder of the county, but the holy order leases a city that belongs to the mayor, whose title cannot be revoked, since they aren't holding that city personally. If it was a castle, then it probably gets done automatically after the holy war.

 

[CivMasters]

Hi there all of you.

Thanks for your reports and inputs. The issue is known to us and our team is working on it.

Cheers!

@Bear_of_The_Forest_QLOC

Will we ever get an answer to this thread?

It's been since february, at least. This should have quite a high priority, since it can affect the game a lot.

 

[SFtheGreat]

Indeed, conquests should diminish not only the power of the conqered, but also their holy orders.
In the meantime updates introduce bugs rather than fixes. Currently there is a plague of syphilis in all my saves since 1.7 and adultery/fornication has increased in frequency.

 

[Bear_of_The_Forest_QLOC]

Hey @CivMasters,

Thank you for bringing this up. As for concrete actions I have investigated this and found out some new info to update our database, regarding of in what circumstances the issue occurs . I will also raise priority of this issue as it visibly disturbs Community. It is most definitely worth bringing Devs attention to this issue.

Thanks again!

 

[pepepelotas]

Hello. This just happened to me in my Italy ironman run. Vassalised the pope, took Latium counties and now i have cities leased to a foreign holy order (Templars) that i cannot revoke. Hope it doesn't blocks me from the "unify italy" decision.

 

[Krostas]

Just unified Africa in the newest patch and noticed that directly holding an enemy holy order's city holding allowed me to revoke it. It still cost me an insane amount of piety (500 or 800) and I still can't revoke leases from enemy holy orders in counties held by vassals.

I would like it if I could revoke holy order leases from hostile faiths within my territory at will (as long as the direct holder of that county also follows my faith). Maybe tie that to crown authority and faith doctrines / tenets, so it better complies with vassal title revocation rules.

It could also allow the holy order to revolt, leading to a "holy war" in which other rulers (or even your own vassals) of the holy orders faith could join against you.

 

[xtremzero]

I was holder of the county, but the holy order leases a city that belongs to the mayor, whose title cannot be revoked, since they aren't holding that city personally. If it was a castle, then it probably gets done automatically after the holy war.

you need to grant the county to the mayor and make him a grand mayor, then revoke his title, which will allow u to hold the city directly.

 

[xtremzero]

this is annoying asf please fix!

 

[Portable Grump]

I will forward this on to raise it again, thank you for reporting!

 

[SFtheGreat]

you need to grant the county to the mayor and make him a grand mayor, then revoke his title, which will allow u to hold the city directly.

So I need to grant the entire county to the mayor of the city first, rather than revoking his city, then revoke his county title, which will cause him to lose county holdings and then I will be able to revoke hostile holy order, correct? Though revoking counties grants tyrany... Unless the mayor is of hostile faith under certain conditions, then there is no tyrany for revoking titles from characters of hostile faith, right?

 

[Emperor 1997]

So I need to grant the entire county to the mayor of the city first, rather than revoking his city, then revoke his county title, which will cause him to lose county holdings and then I will be able to revoke hostile holy order, correct? Though revoking counties grants tyrany... Unless the mayor is of hostile faith under certain conditions, then there is no tyrany for revoking titles from characters of hostile faith, right?

There is no tyranny right, but currently your entire realm can rise up in rebellion against you, if the mayor refuse the revocation, because all your vassals will join the Rebellion even allied ones or friends, because the war_for scripted effecs are buggy.

I have it happen once, tried to revoke a county from infidel vassal and my entire realm has risen up in rebellion against me and this with 100 opinion vassals and mostly allied and befriended vassals, after the war, all traitors were landless.

 

[SFtheGreat]

There is no tyranny right, but currently your entire realm can rise up in rebellion against you, if the mayor refuse the revocation, because all your vassals will join the Rebellion even allied ones or friends, because the war_for scripted effecs are buggy.

I have it happen once, tried to revoke a county from infidel vassal and my entire realm has risen up in rebellion against me and this with 100 opinion vassals and mostly allied and befriended vassals, after the war, all traitors were landless.

So more bugs. I will test if granting the entire county to the mayor and then revoking it will enable revoking lease of a hostile holy order.

 

[Krostas]

So, after continuing my Bori / Hausa run for another century, this still comes up. It's not deterministic whether a holding is revocable or not upon conquering the county in a war. What definitely helps though: If the county holder is of an enemy religion, you can revoke the county free of tyranny and after an optional war, the holding can be revoked.

Current problems:

• Can't reliably revoke leases from hostile holy orders if you personally hold the county.
• Can't revoke them at all if a vassal is holding the county.
• Revoking a lease from a hostile holy order costs obscene amounts of piety (500 each).
  Winning a kingdom level war of any kind can easily cost you 4-6k piety in this way.
• Revoking these leases is in no way a fun interaction / meaningful experience (even if it works).

Suggestions to solve these problems:

• If all lieges of the barony (city / castle) in question are of a faith hostile to that of the lessee, allow revocation.
  (Even for lieges not directly holding the county in question.)
• Reduce or remove the piety cost, make the player "pay" in some other way:
  Holy Order declares war / rebellion, fervor changes (-1 own faith, +2 holy order's faith), etc.
• Especially the rebellion part could lead to the holy order taking control of the whole county when winning and declaring independence (there were historically regions controlled by holy orders, so...)
• To make this more of a challenge than simply having to fight a single holy order, have them raise peasants of associated counties (same religion as holy order and sufficiently low popular opinion) as well as neighbouring rulers of the same faith being able to join (similar to a mini crusade).

 

[SFtheGreat]

So, after continuing my Bori / Hausa run for another century, this still comes up. It's not deterministic whether a holding is revocable or not upon conquering the county in a war. What definitely helps though: If the county holder is of an enemy religion, you can revoke the county free of tyranny and after an optional war, the holding can be revoked.

Current problems:

• Can't reliably revoke leases from hostile holy orders if you personally hold the county.
• Can't revoke them at all if a vassal is holding the county.
• Revoking a lease from a hostile holy order costs obscene amounts of piety (500 each).
  Winning a kingdom level war of any kind can easily cost you 4-6k piety in this way.
• Revoking these leases is in no way a fun interaction / meaningful experience (even if it works).

Suggestions to solve these problems:

• If all lieges of the barony (city / castle) in question are of a faith hostile to that of the lessee, allow revocation.
  (Even for lieges not directly holding the county in question.)
• Reduce or remove the piety cost, make the player "pay" in some other way:
  Holy Order declares war / rebellion, fervor changes (-1 own faith, +2 holy order's faith), etc.
• Especially the rebellion part could lead to the holy order taking control of the whole county when winning and declaring independence (there were historically regions controlled by holy orders, so...)
• To make this more of a challenge than simply having to fight a single holy order, have them raise peasants of associated counties (same religion as holy order and sufficiently low popular opinion) as well as neighbouring rulers of the same faith being able to join (similar to a mini crusade).

So you're doing the "grant the county to the mayor of the city the Holy order is in" option to be able to revoke their lease? Will it work, if the holy order is in a castle?
By the Way, I did Mother of Us All, that was fun, I also restored the Roman Empire, but lost the Head of Faith title, because I granted it to my daughter and it turned out that Roman Empire had equal succession, so I was murdering every HoF heir, but didn't manage before 1453...
That was the state of the affairs when the run ended.

 

[Kazarion]

I'm debugging it right now, so far (for the decision):

The Holy order master must be located in the county that you want to revoke. If he is in another castle that is not under your control you'll not be able to see this county in the selection tab.

For the button: unfortunetly I think we can't fix it, the way the interactions get the titles is hardcoded so I can't change anything, it picks my first title title as a default if I play with it and it's the same if I try to ask for the recipient title...

The harcoded culprit is (I think, but I don't see where it can come from if not from it) : target_filter = actor_domain_titles_including_leases

If we could have an actor_domain_titles_AND_VASSALS_including_leases it would be solved with 1 line edit.

We could recode the button with a custom GUI event but I don't know if AI can use it and if you can replicate the same behaviour :/

And with further test, I've found something that I think is an hardcoded difference between the decision and the button, when using the decision you can see this in the error.log and not when you use the decision:

[23:09:41][decision_custom_widget.cpp:381]: cancel_holy_order_lease_decision: new_holy_order scope not set after effect

It doesn't seems to have any effect but it's curious that it happen in one case and not the other.


Edit: And I forget, with the interaction there are 2 extra checks: is_busy_in_events_localised and if the grand master has a strong hook on the current revoker. Those two checks are not present in the decision trigger.

 

[SFtheGreat]

So I would need to hol personally the county that the grad master of the holy order has as primary holding and then successively revoke all other leases?

 

[Mcgan]

I'm debugging it right now, so far (for the decision):

The Holy order master must be located in the county that you want to revoke. If he is in another castle that is not under your control you'll not be able to see this county in the selection tab.

For the button: unfortunetly I think we can't fix it, the way the interactions get the titles is hardcoded so I can't change anything, it picks my first title title as a default if I play with it and it's the same if I try to ask for the recipient title...

The harcoded culprit is (I think, but I don't see where it can come from if not from it) : target_filter = actor_domain_titles_including_leases

If we could have an actor_domain_titles_AND_VASSALS_including_leases it would be solved with 1 line edit.

We could recode the button with a custom GUI event but I don't know if AI can use it and if you can replicate the same behaviour :/

And with further test, I've found something that I think is an hardcoded difference between the decision and the button, when using the decision you can see this in the error.log and not when you use the decision:



It doesn't seems to have any effect but it's curious that it happen in one case and not the other.


Edit: And I forget, with the interaction there are 2 extra checks: is_busy_in_events_localised and if the grand master has a strong hook on the current revoker. Those two checks are not present in the decision trigger.

I know I tried to do something about it, but it was a while ago and I don't remember much.
Still, I'm attaching a file that might help a bit with some of those problems (I never got to test it in all possible situations). Might give some ideas at least.

 

[Kazarion]

If you don't want to take my mod (available here https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2871648329), then yes, you'll have to take every county that has the holy-order before the one with the title you are interested to have.

The master "teleports" to the next title and so on as soon as you revoke a title that he is in.

 

[Kazarion]

I know I tried to do something about it, but it was a while ago and I don't remember much.
Still, I'm attaching a file that might help a bit with some of those problems (I never got to test it in all possible situations). Might give some ideas at least.

Thanks I'll take a look, (and some part of me don't thank you. I've spent too much time to fix the decision, I wanted to never look back at it )