One line summary of your issue
[2.8.3.3] [SAHQ] Small but excessively-powerful realms cannot create permanent tributaries
Game Version
[2.8.3.3] [SAHQ]
What expansions do you have installed?
All of the above
Do you have mods enabled?
No
Please explain your issue is in as much detail as possible.
I am currently playing as a MR based in Arabia (Dhofar 867 start). I conquered from Mali to Mongolia, invaded China, and then granted independence to all of my vassal kings because MRs should be concerned with commerce not empire-building. (Also because I'm curious to see what will happen...)
Because I am a MR, I am insanely rich and I also have insanely large retinues (buildings in trade posts give increased retinue size). Because I'm Bedouin, my cultural retinues (Camel Warriors) are ridiculously OP*. With max centralisation and a lot of artifacts, I have a very large demesne that's entirely in my capital duchy, so my personal demesne levy on its own is almost as large as the entire military force of the next biggest nation (Byzantium). I have also vassalised the Mamluks and created my own super-large vassal mercenary company. So, my nation is a bit like a medieval mercantile version of Prussia - it can punch far above its weight.
Army sizes & breakdowns:
I would like to create a tributary empire that reflects this level of wealth, power and culture - something like the halo of tributaries that Ming used to have in EU4. However, the game uses a "Realm Size" calculation when deciding whether you can make another independent nation into your permanent tributary. This means that, although I could win a war against everyone else in the world at the same time, I can't make anyone into a permanent tributary (because my realm size is smaller than that of all of my immediate neighbours).
The best I can do is "Extort Tribute" against my immediate neighbours - but, unlike "Establish Tributary", this CB doesn't chain to neighbours-of-tributaries, so I'm restricted in my ambitions. (Also, "Extort Tribute" doesn't give levy reinforcements - which would frankly be far more useful than money.)
Unable to make my smallest neighbour (Arabia) into a permanent tributary:
Suggested Resolution: The "establish tributary" CB (and the equivalent conditions under which the tributary relationship is broken) should be updated with an alternative to the >100% realm size: very_large% military size. (Eg. you can use the CB if you have >100% realm size OR if your military is >300% of the target's.)
You would not be able to game this condition by hiring mercenaries (or spending prestige to get tribal event troops, or by spending assassin currency for their event troops) because the tributary relationship would break down automatically as soon as you dismissed the mercenaries (or as soon as you lost the event troops because you were no longer at war).
In addition, this might act as a subtle anti-blobbing mechanic for players - it gives you a way to play "tall" and still have your neighbours acknowledge your superiority. Also, it lets you set up a kind of tributary empire that actually existed in history but isn't really modelled by CK2 at the moment. (Eg. the way Extra History describe the Empire of Majapahit - but I'm sure there are much better examples out there.)
* "So you want to attack a (high-quality) army that's twice your size, across a river, into mountains, without any commanders? That seems like a bad ide... no, wait, they're all dead - congratulations!" The only minor trouble I had was with the 1210ish Mongol invasion - they tended to beat me if they outnumbered me more than two-to-one, so I had to be careful to concentrate my troops. In general, I suspect I was destroying the enemy armies in the skirmish phase, which is why the Mongol horse archers (who are strong skirmishers) were able to cause a small amount of difficulty.
Steps to reproduce the issue.
Load the attached save and observe that the "Establish Tributary" CB isn't valid on any of the player's neighbouring empires, despite the fact that it would be trivial to win the ensuing war.
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[2.8.3.3] [SAHQ] Small but excessively-powerful realms cannot create permanent tributaries
Game Version
[2.8.3.3] [SAHQ]
What expansions do you have installed?
All of the above
Do you have mods enabled?
No
Please explain your issue is in as much detail as possible.
I am currently playing as a MR based in Arabia (Dhofar 867 start). I conquered from Mali to Mongolia, invaded China, and then granted independence to all of my vassal kings because MRs should be concerned with commerce not empire-building. (Also because I'm curious to see what will happen...)
Because I am a MR, I am insanely rich and I also have insanely large retinues (buildings in trade posts give increased retinue size). Because I'm Bedouin, my cultural retinues (Camel Warriors) are ridiculously OP*. With max centralisation and a lot of artifacts, I have a very large demesne that's entirely in my capital duchy, so my personal demesne levy on its own is almost as large as the entire military force of the next biggest nation (Byzantium). I have also vassalised the Mamluks and created my own super-large vassal mercenary company. So, my nation is a bit like a medieval mercantile version of Prussia - it can punch far above its weight.
Army sizes & breakdowns:
I would like to create a tributary empire that reflects this level of wealth, power and culture - something like the halo of tributaries that Ming used to have in EU4. However, the game uses a "Realm Size" calculation when deciding whether you can make another independent nation into your permanent tributary. This means that, although I could win a war against everyone else in the world at the same time, I can't make anyone into a permanent tributary (because my realm size is smaller than that of all of my immediate neighbours).
The best I can do is "Extort Tribute" against my immediate neighbours - but, unlike "Establish Tributary", this CB doesn't chain to neighbours-of-tributaries, so I'm restricted in my ambitions. (Also, "Extort Tribute" doesn't give levy reinforcements - which would frankly be far more useful than money.)
Unable to make my smallest neighbour (Arabia) into a permanent tributary:
Suggested Resolution: The "establish tributary" CB (and the equivalent conditions under which the tributary relationship is broken) should be updated with an alternative to the >100% realm size: very_large% military size. (Eg. you can use the CB if you have >100% realm size OR if your military is >300% of the target's.)
You would not be able to game this condition by hiring mercenaries (or spending prestige to get tribal event troops, or by spending assassin currency for their event troops) because the tributary relationship would break down automatically as soon as you dismissed the mercenaries (or as soon as you lost the event troops because you were no longer at war).
In addition, this might act as a subtle anti-blobbing mechanic for players - it gives you a way to play "tall" and still have your neighbours acknowledge your superiority. Also, it lets you set up a kind of tributary empire that actually existed in history but isn't really modelled by CK2 at the moment. (Eg. the way Extra History describe the Empire of Majapahit - but I'm sure there are much better examples out there.)
* "So you want to attack a (high-quality) army that's twice your size, across a river, into mountains, without any commanders? That seems like a bad ide... no, wait, they're all dead - congratulations!" The only minor trouble I had was with the 1210ish Mongol invasion - they tended to beat me if they outnumbered me more than two-to-one, so I had to be careful to concentrate my troops. In general, I suspect I was destroying the enemy armies in the skirmish phase, which is why the Mongol horse archers (who are strong skirmishers) were able to cause a small amount of difficulty.
Steps to reproduce the issue.
Load the attached save and observe that the "Establish Tributary" CB isn't valid on any of the player's neighbouring empires, despite the fact that it would be trivial to win the ensuing war.
Upload Attachment
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