CK II - 1.05 Development Diary - 1 of 3 - March 30th 2012

[MasterofMagic]

but a game that works good in MP also works good in SP.

Boy are you totally wrong. Some of the best SP games are games that are "out of balance". Master of Magic is a prime example of a game that isn't balance for a multiplayer experience and one of the BEST solo single player experiences even today. Plus, many games that have multiplayer have been RUINED by balancing multiplayer and then the SOLO AI becomes horrible because it cannot compete in a "balanced" game world. Civilization games have proved out of balance works and Spartan by Slitherine has proved this as well and Age of Wonders:Shadow Magic proved what happens when you "try" to balance multiplayer and RUIN the Single Solo player experience.

Stardock games like Galactic Civilization I & II series and now even Elemental;War of Magic/Entrantress prove there's a better world and gaming experience when you don't put any or too much effort into the multiplayer experience. There's just not enough multiplayers out there to waste those resources. It's been proven time and time again the multiplayer world isn't very big when it comes to these types of games.

It just doesn't work as you cannot have a balanced multiplayer game and a competent competitive AI in the solo single player game. There ALWAYS has to be ADVANTAGES and HANDICAPS for the AI for the games to be challenging and competitive to play against the AI and balancing the multiplayer game just doesn't do it for the AI.

So what needs to be done and more resources put into above and beyond all else is improving THIS AI and making it more challenging and more competitive before even looking at the multiplayer experience.

 

[Talq]

As I'm sure it's been mentioned, I hope that this doesn't rule out little folks from Crusades.

It'll be kind of sucky seeing the HRE blob out Jerusalem and the Middle East by winning crusades all the time.

Perhaps make it so the Emperor doesn't count, but the Dukes are counted.

Well given the historical outcome following the first crusade was that the nobles who got lands in the holy land gave up their lands elsewhere due to that tricky 'hard to rule duchies from all the way across the Mediterranean' problem (Bohemund, Raymond, and Godfrey all gave up their claims elsewhere to rule in the holy land) there is some backing for such splits to be discouraged not least because any such absentee landlord is unlikely to be last long against muslim counter attack.

 

[Jia Xu]

"Kingdom of Andalucia", not Al-Andalus - does this mean Spanish kings will be able to form a Christian kingdom in southern Spain?

I didn't notice that the screenshot is a Crusade for Andalusia. Good catch. Maybe they've added in Vicky2 styled localization shifting. Very interesting.

 

[Dearmad]

Boy are you totally wrong. Some of the best SP games are games that are "out of balance". Master of Magic is a prime example of a game that isn't balance for a multiplayer experience and one of the BEST solo single player experiences even today. Plus, many games that have multiplayer have been RUINED by balancing multiplayer and then the SOLO AI becomes horrible because it cannot compete in a "balanced" game world. Civilization games have proved out of balance works and Spartan by Slitherine has proved this as well and Age of Wonders:Shadow Magic proved what happens when you "try" to balance multiplayer and RUIN the Single Solo player experience.

Stardock games like Galactic Civilization I & II series and now even Elemental;War of Magic/Entrantress prove there's a better world and gaming experience when you don't put any or too much effort into the multiplayer experience. There's just not enough multiplayers out there to waste those resources. It's been proven time and time again the multiplayer world isn't very big when it comes to these types of games.

It just doesn't work as you cannot have a balanced multiplayer game and a competent competitive AI in the solo single player game. There ALWAYS has to be ADVANTAGES and HANDICAPS for the AI for the games to be challenging and competitive to play against the AI and balancing the multiplayer game just doesn't do it for the AI.

So what needs to be done and more resources put into above and beyond all else is improving THIS AI and making it more challenging and more competitive before even looking at the multiplayer experience.

This is so very true. And designing AI to handle certain MP aspects of games is impossible right now. SO game design needs to be restrained in SP so that AI can handle the "Feautres" of the game that you introduce. Brad Wardell seems to mostly get this (though he lost his head with Elemental I.).

 

[MasterofMagic]

This is so very true. And designing AI to handle certain MP aspects of games is impossible right now. SO game design needs to be restrained in SP so that AI can handle the "Feautres" of the game that you introduce. Brad Wardell seems to mostly get this (though he lost his head with Elemental I.).

If it were up to me I'd keep multiplayer out of just about all games or design games specific to multiplayer only and leave out the single player game. Single player and multiplayer has never really comingled together well in any game as one always takes away from the other in some form or fashion. I'm really glad Stardock doesn't cater to the multiplayer game in their games. Although Elemental:WoM wasn't one of their better releases the Enchantress one is coming along just fine.

 

[Theddude]

Don't forget an icon for Zoroastrianism -- it's the only religion group without its own icon. hmy:

My thoughts exactly, it kind of bugs me without one.

 

[NewbieOne]

Here's an idea: if you're already handing out the Kingdom title based on who contributed the most, why not hand out the duchy titles under that title on a similar principle at least in some circumstances?

I wouldn't really like to see France getting a duchy when England wins the kingdom, obviously, but if a mere count (even baron for that matter, although extremely unlikely) can in theory contribute the most and become the king, then perhaps this could be a way for small-tier participants to get an upgrade? Or perhaps some other kind of handing out the titles to preserve the liege overlordship of the new king but allowing other participants to nominate e.g. their junior dynasty members to become vassals of the new king in some of the kingdoms or duchies?

 

[RedRooster81]

Looking at the screenshot, how do you quantify 'contribution'? Is it gold, victory in combat and sieges, etc?

 

[NewbieOne]

Looking at the screenshot, how do you quantify 'contribution'? Is it gold, victory in combat and sieges, etc?

Proportion of warscore obtained by the actions of each ruler in the war, I think. But perhaps with some modifiers. Else we could have negative numbers for someone who took the brunt of the enemy attack and positive for the allies who took the enemy cities.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

My thoughts exactly, it kind of bugs me without one.

I've added this as a bug/suggestion in the bug forum if you're interested. At the very least it's an oversight.

 

[RedRooster81]

Proportion of warscore obtained by the actions of each ruler in the war, I think. But perhaps with some modifiers. Else we could have negative numbers for someone who took the brunt of the enemy attack and positive for the allies who took the enemy cities.

But looking at the huge number for the pope, I assumed it was gold. I've never seen the papacy go on crusade before. The only offensive war I've seen the pope fight is to press his claim on poor Matilda di Canossa. I suppose we'll see in a week or so.

 

[Baneslave]

But looking at the huge number for the pope, I assumed it was gold. I've never seen the papacy go on crusade before. The only offensive war I've seen the pope fight is to press his claim on poor Matilda di Canossa. I suppose we'll see in a week or so.

On the other hand, second on the list is duke.

 

[Cabezaestufa]

A question: will it be possible to make people join wars/create alliances by event too? The Game of Thrones mod is currently experiencing some trouble, and an answer to this question would be very valuable for us to figure out which way to go.

 

[Zarco]

Will helping in a war increase chances of receiving a title? Or is it still random?

 

[the_legion]

Sorry that I'm late, I was in Italy eating pasta to save their economy ...

Is it possible that "Crusades" in Spain are automatically called "reconquista"?
It would be so much nicer to read "reconquista of Andalucia" than "crusade for Andalucia".
Also I know that not all crusades targeted Jerusalem but the first crusade should be very likely for Jerusalem.
I had multiple 1st Crusades for Alexandria.

 

[Snaake]

Those are great ideas, especially about the help another even if it is not a crusade option (things will be more interesting this way). I just wonder however what is the little buttons in the second screenshot, pointing toward the crusaders and toward the attacked muslim. It cannot be "join the war in one or other side", so what could it be?

Why can't it be join the war on that side, with the one with your coreligionists being the only available option? In fact that seems like the logical option. It's certainly styled as a button, not as an indicator that would show who's winning...

 

[RedRooster81]

Why can't it be join the war on that side, with the one with your coreligionists being the only available option? In fact that seems like the logical option. It's certainly styled as a button, not as an indicator that would show who's winning...

Not necessarily. You should be able to make alliances of convenience, as happened in the four main areas of Christian-'infidel' interaction (Iberia, Baltic, ERE, Levant-East Africa). Not that there should not be consequences for allying with these Muslims against those Muslims or even these Muslims against those Christians, above all from your religious leaders.

Ideally, you could also form alliances with non-Christians that is difficult (and sometimes dangerous) to maintain but potentially very profitable for both sides. The Byzantines allied briefly with the Golden Horde and Ilkhanate and later with the Ottomans (though not entirely freely).

 

[Theddude]

I've added this as a bug/suggestion in the bug forum if you're interested. At the very least it's an oversight.

Definitely, I would really love to see all of the religions of the game given more depth, especially the minor ones, otherwise they can be so easily overlooked.