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Cinéad IV

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We can't really judge how good the process is without seeing it. From what's been said thus far, however, it does seem more reasonable than in Vicky 1, where you had to 'get lucky' buying a heap of techs, as research for uncivs was so thoroughly gimped that there was no point investing in it.

The new system appears to give the player an incentive to invest in research, while at the same time stressing that the only thing that often kept bullies at bay was a strong military. This seems fairly accurate to me.

And I agree, there should be earlyish civ decisions for certain big countries which historically made it through the period, or nearly made it.
 

Hardcore_gamer

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However, I think a better argument is that part of what it means (or at least used to mean in Victoria I) to be unciv is that you're a target for a civilized power to subjugate you. And unless you build up your military forces to a respectable level, that will remain the case (or be even more the case, particularly if your income/industry has been built up thus providing a greater incentive for a civilized power to come a-conquering). So, a robust military basically makes up the "I'm no longer easy to conquer" part of becoming a civilized nation.

No, this also doesn't make any sense. Just to give you a real world example, Iceland was one of the poorest and un-industrialized countries in Europe at the end of the 19th century and early beginnings of the 20th, and yet now we are one of if not the most developed nation in the world, and yet we don't even own a army and haven't since 1869. According to the game mechanics, we should still be a uncivic.

Just face it, have a large army requirement to become civilized is just plain dumb.

I can understand why the rest of the world would not be impressed by a nation with a laughable army, but that would still not explain why said nation should not be allowed to construct any factories or modernize its economy.

Leader: We have heaps of money, technology and resources! Its time to modernize, right?
Adviser: No.
Leader: Why not?
Adviser: Because we haven't invaded enough nations yet!
Leader: Oh yea you are right, well lets go beat someone up then! And THEN we will modernize!
Adviser: Well what a great suggestion sir!

(Massive Sarcasm)
 
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unmerged(203712)

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I think including a military score requirement is defensible. The most obvious and least satisfactory point is that it's part of how the game ranks countries. The transition from unciv to civ is essentially moving from one tier of countries to a "higher", more respectable one. In terms of game play, that means raising your military score alongside your prestige and industrial score.

However, I think a better argument is that part of what it means (or at least used to mean in Victoria I) to be unciv is that you're a target for a civilized power to subjugate you. And unless you build up your military forces to a respectable level, that will remain the case (or be even more the case, particularly if your income/industry has been built up thus providing a greater incentive for a civilized power to come a-conquering). So, a robust military basically makes up the "I'm no longer easy to conquer" part of becoming a civilized nation.
"A robust military" means > 80 military score, which exceeds every country's in 1836? Please remember UK had only 68 military score at the beginning, so an unciv country can't become civilized until it exceeds UK, the #1 GP, in military? I just don't get it.:confused:
 

Lord_Andrew

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Well Iceland didnt had to have a army to become civilized, becuase it was regonized as a part of the civilized world even though there only was farmers and fishers lived at Iceland.
 

ulrichomega

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Civilized status is mostly how you are seen by the rest of the world. To be seen as a "modern" nation, you need to be able to project your forces, hence the military score requirement.

It's been discussed before, and all that happened was that alot of people got angry and nothing was changed (because at this point nothing can be changed, really). If I were you, I'd just mod it in the final version.
 

Jake Dust

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And remember that while 80 seems a high score in the beginning, once your tech advances, each of your troops also represent a bigger score. So a brigade that once added 2 points could add after some techs 6 or 7.
With this in mind, it means the army's size isn't so important, but its sophistication.

As for Iceland, it was never a unciv. It's more logical to compare Iceland with Canada or Australia than with Ashanti or Persia.



The whole Vicky idea of civilisation is based on European perceptions, and a well trained army is essential for survival. It was a time when people sat around a table drawing semi-random borders for Africa. Did they respect any country just because it was rich or culturally advanced? Pfft, just count the non-European countries which survived against all forms of colonialism. Having non-trivial pre-reqs is essential to represent the time period, it'd not make sense to see a lot of uncivs civilising, and if a player wants to do that, it should be a real challenge, like surviving as Xhosa :rofl: (maybe not that hard, but certainly easier than doing a WC in EU with Japan).

The game doesn't have to be completely historical, just believable.
 

Darkrenown

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Nation with 0 military score: Hey Europe, we are civilised now! We are your equals, respect us!
European powers: Ha, as if! *Sends 5 guys + a machine gun down there* Nice new colony we've got ourselves here.

Nation with decent military score: Hey Europe, we are civilised now! We are your equals, respect us!
European powers: Bah, well ok, we suppose so.
 

Projekt 919

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"A robust military" means > 80 military score, which exceeds every country's in 1836? Please remember UK had only 68 military score at the beginning, so an unciv country can't become civilized until it exceeds UK, the #1 GP, in military? I just don't get it.:confused:

Military Score grows Rapidly as you Reasearch new techs and build larger armies from the beginning of the game, total score of most GP's by 1860's seems to be 650-1000+ so having 110 isn't all that unreasonable
 

Nikephorus16

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I'm sorry if I'm a little off topic, but how does one accrue military score in the first place? Successfull wars and many brigades? Judging by what Projeck said I guess military techs too.
 

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Well Iceland didnt had to have a army to become civilized, becuase it was regonized as a part of the civilized world

As for Iceland, it was never a unciv.

Are you guys kidding me? Have you any idea how pathetically backwards Iceland was until the 20th century? A part of the civilized world or not, we were still just a bunch of farmers and fisherman with almost no real industry.

What made Iceland any more qualified to become a modern nation then any of the other backward countries of the world? The fact that Iceland was a western country has nothing to do with the fact that it became stronger.

What is annoying me so utterly and completely is that the people who keep arguing that the requirements for becoming civilized make even a shred of sense argue that a nation isn't modern unless it is viewed as being such by the rest of the world. This is so utterly stupid on so many levels.

If nation A has the resources, the money, the technology, and the will to modernize, then nation A can modernize. Simple as that. The fact that nation B or C or D thinks that nation A is backwards anyways changes nothing.

To create a analogy:

Peter is a person who wants to become a good swimmer, but his bullies across the street keep taunting him by telling him he is a terrible swimmer and that he will never be able to swim like they do. Peter however ignores them and works long and hard to become a good swimmer. Then after a long time he succeeds in his goal by winning a local swimming contest, however in spite of that his old bullies still hurl insults at him and keep insisting that he is not as good a swimmer as they are, but Peter ignores them yet again since he already knows that he is and has a trophy in his hands that proves it.

In case you failed to understand the analogy above, Peter gets called a bad swimmer by his bullies who insist that he is a bad swimmer, but Peter doesn't care, because even though his bullies may insist that he isn't as good as them he has already proven them wrong even though they refuse to admit it.

By the logic of the people who insist that other nations opinions are important to nations who want to modernize, Peter's trophy should have been taken away from him for no reason because his bullies still considered him inferior to them even though Peter had proven himself good at swimming and won the contest.
 

zarinth

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Firstly, its a decision, so its most certainly a flat value.

Secondly, proportional how? As per their Ranking? :p As per their population size and country size then? That'd fail to account for several factors of power which in turn would be quite complex to calculate.

I really dont think PI would be willing to put the time into making it proportional, while they could be fixing bugs (assuming they'd even want to make the change), im afraid.

Its a lot easier to make it proportional than to have a fix value and try to balance it with all the countries.
 

unmerged(76495)

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If nation A has the resources, the money, the technology, and the will to modernize, then nation A can modernize. Simple as that. The fact that nation B or C or D thinks that nation A is backwards anyways changes nothing.

I believe the real point here is that what you're saying is technically true, but there were other obstacles in place that kept the various uncivilized nations the way they were which can only be abstracted within the game through various abstract game mechanics.

Yes technically anyone with the motivation and the resources might be able to accomplish it, but so many social, religious or any number of other issues prevented it. Any human player taking control of an unciv will obviously want to civilize themselves as early as possible, but being able to simple say "ok I want to civilize so let's do it" is simply not the way it would have worked for whatever reasons.

There must be some form of obstacle that must be surpassed to achieve it and my basic understanding for the way the game abstracts it seems reasonable to me. Those nations didn't civilize with the rest of the world for various reasons, so for them to become civilized they need to gain the power and/or prestige the abstract mechanics require.

Edit: Dangit. Seems the forum wasn't responding and tried to refresh to get it to post. Now to find where the option to delete it. Sorry about that guys.
 
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Darkrenown

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To create a analogy:
Peter is a person who wants to become a good swimmer, but his bullies across the street keep taunting him by telling him he is a terrible swimmer and that he will never be able to swim like they do. Peter however ignores them and works long and hard to become a good swimmer. Then after a long time he succeeds in his goal by winning a local swimming contest, however in spite of that his old bullies still hurl insults at him and keep insisting that he is not as good a swimmer as they are, but Peter ignores them yet again since he already knows that he is and has a trophy in his hands that proves it.

In case you failed to understand the analogy above, Peter gets called a bad swimmer by his bullies who insist that he is a bad swimmer, but Peter doesn't care, because even though his bullies may insist that he isn't as good as them he has already proven them wrong even though they refuse to admit it.

By the logic of the people who insist that other nations opinions are important to nations who want to modernize, Peter's trophy should have been taken away from him for no reason because his bullies still considered him inferior to them even though Peter had proven himself good at swimming and won the contest.

Counter-analogy:
Peter wants to become a swimmer, but some bullies hang out at the local pool and will beat him up unless he impresses them enough to be allowed to join the swimming club. The bullies won't really want more members in their club because they enjoy showing off their trophies to people who don't have them. Peter is able to swim a little in a nearby river, but he can't compete in the swimming trials because he's not allowed in the pool. Peter works out every day until he is very strong. The bullies don't want to risk fighting him and he is allowed to join the club. He shows off his swimming skils and is awarded a trophy.

In case you failed to understand the analogy above, it doesn't really matter how good a swimmer Peter is once he can float a bit, it all depends whether he's allowed in the pool or not.

By the logic of the people who insist that other nations opinions are unimportant to nations who want to civilise, the pool should only be knee-deep and there should be a table full of trophies sitting in the middle. Anyone in town should be able to wade through the shallow water and take one whenever they feel like it. Pretty soon everyone in town has a trophy, the entire trophy system becomes worthless, and the major of the town wonders why he even bothered founding the swimming club.
 

Sid Meier

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This is my way of properly implementing the civilization process

0. We implement a X.Y percent "westernized" counter that when you read 100% your civilized, this focuses on military, economic and diplomatic development and should ONLY require Freedom of Trade, but each tech you add contributes a percentage, somethings are absolute increases (military) but in theory cost too much money to pursue alone, Technology is absolute, Diplomatic acceptance is also an absolute increase but in multiplayer requires the players to play ball with you, in singleplayer just get relations to 100% and request recognition.

Factories, trade volumn, and national/state infrastructure are relative increases based on country size, so for china its a longer and more difficult process then for Siam.

Another thing about this idea is that we can also apply it to other countries, like Russia, and change it so instead of 100%, make it something like 70% to become an independent nation to represent Russia's and Turkey's statuses as hyrbid nations of only partial westernization, we could also make it so that this value can decrease and thus some nations can slide back into uncivilized status.

1. The westernization process should be a process of where the 'unciv' nation develops along western lines: Military, Infrastructure, Trade, Industry, literacy, Corruption.

2. The military can be seen as modernized via the buying or production of modern arms, this should be keyed to the willingness of the nation to spend the hard currency to import it, or via producing modern arms via factories he builds up, the former is faster but expensive and could drag the other sectors, while simply waiting to build them yourself focuses you on developing all the others first, which may be faster overrall but maybe leave you militarily weak if you lack the monies to do both.

3. Infrastructure: The construction of 'modern' (for a given definition of modern) roads and railways, I would suggest VIP2 modders redo railway levels to be 4 levels of roads and 4 levels of railways as separate, roads effectively do the same as railways but allow for a more gradual effiency bonus and movement speedtimes.

Infra should be developed either by building it yourself, (with cash) or have capitalists build em. Infrastructure alone only indirectly helps the process via increased effiency, raising industry score and income. Also included is constructing trade ports* (a trade port being something where goods get stored before being traded if we wanted to track physical location of goods prior to consumption, this could link to railroads having additional functionality, like the Hoi3 supply system, rails are needed for transnational and international movement of goods), shipyards (for specific ship building), and eventually maybe airports?

For the purposes of westernization, having a rough railway network, like say along the coast of china, beijing to shanghai probly sufficient for the initial civilization score.

*I also suggest adding additional provincial buildings.

4. Trade, uncivs should research freedom of trade before they can use the international market, until then pops can/should only be able to trade via rivers, and with pops 1 state over, or across straights. Once you get freedom of trade you need to build a trade depot/port to begin trading, pops can only access the international market once there's a railway link to a trade port.

Your total volumn in trade has a relative increase on your westernization status, with an absolute bonus increase within freedom of trade, the more pops that can access the world/regional market the higher the percentage goes.

5. Industry, building factories, manning them, and producing goods should be a relative increase based on physical construction of factories, the number of pops manning them, and the money made from selling goods, also the level/quality of goods produce should all contribute.

6. Literacy, as it increases it should also increase your westernization score as well as the indirect effect of increasing economic effiency, having extremely low literacy should be what represents the lack of rp generation, thus as your literacy increases to the double digits your rp/month rate should approach that of the Westernized nations, improving certain literacy related infrastructures such as schools or universities should help boost the rate literacy increases and provide a higher bureaucrat and clerk generation.

7. Corruption, uncivilized nations I think should be seen as having a high degree of 'corruption', meaning a significant amount of machine politics on the local level, revolt risk (and spiking RR when you try to fight corruption), and your corruption should take the place of the Unciv modifer on income, say uncivs only got 1/10 of its income in vanilla, under this system having 90% corruption at start should have the same effect, fighting this corruption should allow you to reclaim tax income, thus even if your not technically civilized fighting corruption can allow you to be competitive much earlier.

Fighting corruption should and can be represented as clamping down on unrest, and raising crime fighting should help fight it.

Final Point: As pointed out and suggested many times by others, westernization if a gradual process should have numerous conservative elites who will be fighting it tooth and nail as it represents an attack on their current privileges, and it is this elites who are terrible commanders and currently more or less selling you out for their own position, thus every little bit you increase your development, there should be corresponding increases in the revolt risk of aristocrats, soldier pops, and officers who share their ideology and some peasants who can be bribed into bandwagoning with their revolt.

As such each step represented by an increase in the Westernization Points also represents an step towards centralization, this could allow some modeling of attempts of provincial and fringe areas by minorities who see this as an oppurtunity to break free, along with secret societies, etc.

This is to provide the challenge portion, managing revolt risk and the increasing consciousness westernization causes, think about it, to build factories and railways your either gonna need foreign engineers, or domestic ones... In fact this provides my next idea, an event that gives you the option to focus on getting your own engineers and skilled workers to drive your modernization, or hire foreign instructors to do it for you, if you do the former literacy increases with only a small increase in consciousness but hurt relations with foreign powers (and push back your ability to get recognition), if you accept, then you get a MILL and a CON increase as well as a bigger literacy increase.

As I was saying, by westernizing your expousing your populace to western ideas, which includes liberalism, democracy, rights, etc, things that make your people question your absolute rule just as they support the process, so MILL will go down for pops that benefit, like craftsmen, clerks, labourers but increase for those whose privileges get taken away and CON increases all around, higher for the poor strata, lower increase for the rich strata (as theyre already educated).

Thus we balance the westernization process, against the threat of revolts and reactive forces, at the sametime we have it broken down into a far more gradual process one that could or may take longer, but would also allow an Unciv to be effective much earlier.

I am of a mind to agree that having a decent modern military should be a requirement since military strength was important, and if you had a good economy you could afford a strong military, its also a way of keeping the player from being complacent.
 

Sovetskysoyuz

Username is not an endorsement of Russia/the USSR
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In case you failed to understand the analogy above, it doesn't really matter how good a swimmer Peter is once he can float a bit, it all depends whether he's allowed in the pool or not.

PoolsClosedEurope.png


It had to be done.