Civilizations fall and rise

[Prufrock451]

I would love to see a feature like this. During this period, there were several times when organized states arose or collapsed.

I'm thinking here specifically of Zimbabwe, which collapsed back into nomadism, and the Native American tribes, where the impact of colonialism shattered organized states into tribal societies (in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys) and forced other tribes to adopt elements of organized statehood (such as the Creeks or Cherokees).

 

[Estonianzulu]

I could see this causing serious problems. Like in CK when empires randomly seem to collapse and vanish.

 

[OHgamer]

Er Zimbabwe did not "lapse into nomadism". While stone architecture was abandoned after around 1650, state structures controlling large areas of the Zimbabwe plateau survived up to the Ndebele migrations in wake of the Zulu Mfecane in Natal in the early 1800s. Mwenemutapa dominated in the north up to the mid-1600s while thereafter the center of gravity shifted to the Changamire state in the south. But there was no splitup into small stateless societies in wake of the decline of Zimbabwe in the early fifteenth century.

For further information, see

Beach, DN, The Shona & Zimbabwe 900-1850 (New York:1980).

Bhila, HHK, "Southern Zambezia," in Ogot, BA, ed, UNESCO General History Of Africa, V : Africa From The Sixteenth To The Eighteenth Century, (Paris:1992), 640-682

Fagan, BM, "The Zambezi And Limpopo Basins," in Niane, DT, ed, UNESCO General History Of Africa, IV : Africa From The Twelfth To The Sixteenth Century, (Paris:1984), 525-550

 

[curtis]

Er Zimbabwe did not "lapse into nomadism". While stone architecture was abandoned after around 1650, state structures controlling large areas of the Zimbabwe plateau survived up to the Ndebele migrations in wake of the Zulu Mfecane in Natal in the early 1800s. Mwenemutapa dominated in the north up to the mid-1600s while thereafter the center of gravity shifted to the Changamire state in the south. But there was no splitup into small stateless societies in wake of the decline of Zimbabwe in the early fifteenth century.

For further information, see Beach, DN, The Shona & Zimbabwe 900-1850 (New York:1980).

Yep, sounds like nomadism to me.


As to rise and falls of civilizations, I think it's a terrible idea. Let the states be shattered by an army and conquest (or by a triggered event ) instead of a vague concept of colonialism terminating their existence.

 

[Mike of NW8]

As interesting as Zimbabwe's case may be this is a game primarily about Europe..... The game model must center on Europe and not try to encapsulate features / issues from outside of this area.

Not that I'm being overly Euro-centric

 

[Mowers]

But there needs to be a mechanism to capture and model the rise and decline of nations. We used specific events last time and this had issues. We need a system that actually models rise and decline more effectively. How I am not sure, but I believe that the answer my lay in a POP like system (with little govt control) and how they behave over time.

 

[OriginalRafiki]

Er Zimbabwe did not "lapse into nomadism". While stone architecture was abandoned after around 1650, state structures controlling large areas of the Zimbabwe plateau survived up to the Ndebele migrations in wake of the Zulu Mfecane in Natal in the early 1800s. Mwenemutapa dominated in the north up to the mid-1600s while thereafter the center of gravity shifted to the Changamire state in the south. But there was no splitup into small stateless societies in wake of the decline of Zimbabwe in the early fifteenth century.

For further information, see

Beach, DN, The Shona & Zimbabwe 900-1850 (New York:1980).

Bhila, HHK, "Southern Zambezia," in Ogot, BA, ed, UNESCO General History Of Africa, V : Africa From The Sixteenth To The Eighteenth Century, (Paris:1992), 640-682

Fagan, BM, "The Zambezi And Limpopo Basins," in Niane, DT, ed, UNESCO General History Of Africa, IV : Africa From The Twelfth To The Sixteenth Century, (Paris:1984), 525-550

This is why make a point of never disagreeing with OHgamer on matters concerning African history :nods:

 

[OHgamer]

As interesting as Zimbabwe's case may be this is a game primarily about Europe..... The game model must center on Europe and not try to encapsulate features / issues from outside of this area.

Not that I'm being overly Euro-centric

Oh not disagreeing with you.

Just the idea that the Shona of the Zimbabwe plateau "lapsed back into nomadism" after the decline of Great Zimbabwe.

 

[Mike of NW8]

Mowers
But there needs to be a mechanism to capture and model the rise and decline of nations. We used specific events last time and this had issues. We need a system that actually models rise and decline more effectively. How I am not sure, but I believe that the answer my lay in a POP like system (with little govt control) and how they behave over time.

Sure: This is always a make or break issue with any game worth playing. One interesting thing I was listening to the other night was how most expansive powers throughout history have had one thing in common: lots of young people as a % of their populace. Polities on the decline have relatively few.

I've always thought there should be some sort of state-virility aspect to the game (though when I've thought this through it always seems to come very close to stability). This would be some combination measure of leader aims, population change, social dynamics, war losses / gains. High virility indicates states with the confidence to stir things up a bit. Low virility would be status-quo powers.

It is interesting to remember that this is all relative too. While power fluctuates between Western states. During this period, the West's total virilance would be high....

 

[joriandrake]

But there needs to be a mechanism to capture and model the rise and decline of nations. We used specific events last time and this had issues. We need a system that actually models rise and decline more effectively. How I am not sure, but I believe that the answer my lay in a POP like system (with little govt control) and how they behave over time.

Like the rise and decline of Burgundy and Saxony.

 

[Prufrock451]

Well, if the Zimbabwe thing is off, then how about the American states? Or the collapse of neighboring states after the refugee wave in front of the Zulu expansion? Or the collapse of states in West Africa?

The point is: there were quite a few places and times during this period that societies adopted or abandoned organization as a political state. And I'd love to see some level of organization between full-fledged state and nameless "medium-aggressive" natives.