Civilization: Beyond Earth?

[The Founder]

I think these sentences are completely incorrect. Traditions are unrestricted at the moment so you can get all of them with enough time and shrines of unity. You said it yourself, ethos are unchanging and limited to 3. How is that less rare and valuable than a feature that every empire will just auto-fill by the end game?

You missed a rather important part of the Dev Diaries there:

The cost of unlocking a Tradition depends on the size of your empire, as well as how internally stable it is. Unhappy factions, minority species and slaves all increase the cost of adoption Traditions further, though these effects can be offset or even canceled out entirely by adopting the right Traditions for the empire you intend to build. Overall, small harmonious empires will unlock Traditions more quickly than large, expansionistic ones. Which Traditions you unlock also has a significant impact on the ethics of your population, and so can be a useful tool to either strengthen your existing empire ethics or further a planned empire-wide shift towards a different set of ethics altogether.

We have 7 traditions with 7 levels each (1 Adpotion, 1 Finisher, 5 middle). even if the cost just increaes Lineary, 7*7 = 49 still result in a Triangular number as high as 1,225.
If we go Factorial or even exponential increase, the stuff will just get a lot worse.

Ethos are less rare. Simply by the fact taht you can change them now. You are not longer limited to "only the 3 choices you made at the gamestart".

Science fiction and real life is full of examples of societies where that isn't a focus. A species that fights among themselves just for the sport and thrill, cannibals, making irrational choices based on some myth or superstition. The Aztecs are a great example, killing thousands of their own people in pointless rituals, and letting Spanish dudes into the city because they look like one of your gods. Terrible and by all standards highly uninstinctual for survival.

Sacrificing can be used to limit Population pressure. Also it was the closest thing they had to Weather Forecasts, Earthquake Warning and the like.

The 2nd example only shows us that Empires that did not have to fight for Survival for a long time, tend to do stupid, self overestimating stuff. China pre-Opium war and pre-WW2 was similar.

 

[Xoatl]

You missed a rather important part of the Dev Diaries there:

We have 7 traditions with 7 levels each (1 Adpotion, 1 Finisher, 5 middle). even if the cost just increaes Lineary, 7*7 = 49 still result in a Triangular number as high as 1,225.
If we go Factorial or even exponential increase, the stuff will just get a lot worse.

Ethos are less rare. Simply by the fact taht you can change them now. You are not longer limited to "only the 3 choices you made at the gamestart".


Sacrificing can be used to limit Population pressure. Also it was the closest thing they had to Weather Forecasts, Earthquake Warning and the like.

The 2nd example only shows us that Empires that did not have to fight for Survival for a long time, tend to do stupid, self overestimating stuff. China pre-Opium war and pre-WW2 was similar.

You are still only limited to 3 ethics, plus if ethos restricted traditions it would mean the more ethics you have the less traditions are open to you. So picking less ethics in the beginning would actually have a strategic reason and not just roleplay. Also I agree, I was saying that survival isn't a default goal for all societies, where are we at odds there?

 

[The Founder]

You are still on limited to 3 ethics, plus if ethos restricted traditions it would mean the more ethics you have the less traditions are open to you. So picking less ethics in the beginning would actually have a strategic reason and not just roleplay. Also I agree, I was saying that survival isn't a default goal for all societies, where are we at odds there?

With two points I think:
1. That Ethos is less resticted, with the comming ability to change it ingame.
2. That Traditions are the new 'most resticted' resource in the game.

You asume that Ethos restricts traditions. When in fact Traditions have a major effect on Ethos change instead. Willing and unwilling change alike.
i.e., an older Screenshoot of the Reworked Faction system showed a positive "Democractic Traditions" modifier on Individualist Faction.
Harmony and Purity have clear Xenophile/Xenophobe tendencies in thier descriptions. So I asume adopting them will drive your Population Ethos (and thus longterm your empire Ethos) into a certain direction.

Traditions define the Ethos to some degree, not the other way around.

 

[BlackUmbrellas]

if ethos restricted traditions it would mean the more ethics you have the less traditions are open to you.

Given you can use Traditions to help shift your empire's ethics, they can't be restricted based on current ethos- additionally, literally zero information we've been given indicates that the Traditions you take are "permanent" in the sense that you can't turn them off later. Nothing indicates they aren't, for that matter... but assuming one way or the other is pointless.

(I'd hazard you can switch 'em on and off anyways, though, because that'd go well with the ability to use them to switch you empire's ethos. No point taking Pacifist traditions to demilitarize your empire if your now-pacifist population is stuck being forever angry about your early-choice military Traditions...)

 

[Xoatl]

You're right they did say traditions will be one way to shift ethos. If you are able to refund/remove them then there shouldn't be a problem. Except maybe calling it traditions and the need for one more.

Expansion => Egalitarian?
Domination => Authoritarian
Prosperity => Pacifist?
Harmony => Xenophile
Supremacy => Militarist
Purity => Xenophobe
Exploration => Materialist

Where's spiritualist? I'm afraid no matter the way you slice it the traditions system doesn't feel completely worked out. Perhaps the Ascension perks will make sense of it.

 

[The Founder]

You're right they did say traditions will be one way to shift ethos. If you are able to refund/remove them then there shouldn't be a problem. Except maybe calling it traditions and the need for one more.

Expansion => Egalitarian?
Domination => Authoritarian
Prosperity => Pacifist?
Harmony => Xenophile
Supremacy => Militarist
Purity => Xenophobe
Exploration => Materialist

Where's spiritualist? I'm afraid no matter the way you slice it the traditions system doesn't feel completely worked out. Perhaps the Ascension perks will make sense of it.

Actions will define Ethos Distribution. The Traditions you choose is a action.
Once Ethos distribution favors some side, you are forced to adapt your Government Ethos to match the Majority to have happy/content population. A pacifist that goes to (liberation) war a lot, will propably not be able to maintain being a pacifist for long. A militarist without a valid enemy to fight, will likely not be able to maintain militarism. Your neo-roman empire that uses early Xeno Slavery via Xenophobia* might loose that if it does not also go Purity.

You only look at a 1:1 relationship between Ethos and Traditions. Wich does not have to be:
Expansion (Focuses on growth through rapid colonization.) => actually I would assign that to any agressive AI personality. Definitely the Hive Mind AI type. Xenophobes to (thier Border Range bonus fits it). Definitely more of a early game bonus. Propably carries the Colony tech of Inidivudualist.
Domination (Focuses on maintaining control over your population and subjects) => Yes, clearly collectivist/Authoritarian. But most conquerors could use it. Subjects might include Vassals
Prosperity (Focuses on economic growth.) => If Egalitarian inherits the "Energy Production" part of Individualism, I would say it fits. Could also be Materialist building cost bonus.
Harmony (Focuses on maintaining a happy and diverse population) => Individualist Policy divergence, Pacifist Happiness buffs and of course Xenophilia can be clearly seen in this.
Supremacy (Focuses on growth through military conquest.) => Clearly Militarist. But again, any agressive empire could use it. Propably carries Militarist War Happiness reduction.
Purity (Focuses on strength through homogenity and dominion over other species) => While Xenophobia is obvious, how about the Ethos conversion** part of Spiritualist?
Exploration (Focuses on exploration and scientific discovery.) => The science bonus part of Materialism, of course.

Every Ethos has multiple Factors. Collectivist has at least:
Slavery Tollerance
Late game Ethic Divergence Techs
Food use and thus growth
Government restrictions
Those 4 can could be split over 4 Traditions easily.


*I consider the roman empire a prime example of Ethos switching over the ages.

**As I undestand the current Ethos Divergence buffs will be a positive power effect for the Government Ethos.

 

[Xoatl]

We don't know if ethos drift is localized to one tradition or spread between a couple. What you said still doesn't sound balanced. Possibly 3 militarist traditions with 1 maybe being spiritualist. Maybe the Ascension Perks have to do with some sort of religious victory? Like becoming part of a higher dimension. Or maybe a new crisis event? Consequently being the 8th tradition for Spiritualist?

It would be much cleaner to add an 8th Piety tradition if we're doing it this way.

EDIT: I should point out maybe they will add an 8th Piety tradition once they fleshed out the religion game in Stellaris. Like they did with DLCs for EU.

 

[The Founder]

Possibly 3 militarist traditions with 1 maybe being spiritualist.

You are conflating Militarism and Expansion. That Militarist empire might well be a Tall one with lots of Tributiaries.

 

[Xoatl]

You are conflating Militarism and Expansion. That Militarist empire might well be a Tall one with lots of Tributiaries.

Huh? Domination, Supremacy, and Purity can all be argued would drift a species to Militarism. You said Purity might drift to Spiritualism, That's 3 to 1. That's not balanced at all is what I'm saying. But after this conversation I'm pretty convinced they'll add a Piety tradition once religion is more fleshed out.

 

[The Founder]

Huh? Domination, Supremacy, and Purity can all be argued would drift a species to Militarism. You said Purity might drift to Spiritualism, That's 3 to 1. That's not balanced at all is what I'm saying. But after this conversation I'm pretty convinced they'll add a Piety tradition once religion is more fleshed out.

Domination is clearly Collectivist.
Purity is clearly Xenophobe with a possible Spiritualism axis.
Only Supremacy is Militarist.

By the definition of hte AI personalities, both Xenophobia and Collectivist have an inherent "agressive" Ethos.
With no other Ethos deciding for or against Warfare/Conquest, they will tend to Warfare/Conquest.
For these guys Warfare is only a tool. And not the most liked one, by the way (all thier pops suffer -10% War Happiness).

Now Militarist in turn - they actually Glorify Militarism. Thier pops are far from unhappy when at war and especially after winning. What they "get" from the war does not realy mater that much for them.

 

[Summin Cool]

We already know the mechanic is lifted straight from Civ 5.

What I don't like is that the trees appear to be shallow.