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Beyond Disbelief

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No idea, never went back to it. It could never hold a candle against Alpha Centauri, so when I want civ in space i tend to go for that.

Most games I toss around on forums as being the greatest game of all time, I cannot bear with the low tech graphics or performance when attempting to replay.

Not the case with Alpha Centauri, which I replayed not too long ago. I'm both impressed and depressed how a 17 year old game is still standing the test of time.
 
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Not the case with Alpha Centauri, which I replayed not too long ago. I'm both impressed and depressed how a 17 year old game is still standing the test of time.
By that point the graphics had reached the point of "good enough" for the 4X genre, and nobody has even come close to touching the technology quotes in that game. Anyone who says that Beyond Earth failed in part because people just can't relate to a civ unless it has an obvious real-world counterpart obviously never played Alpha Centauri, with those leaders dripping personality thanks to those tech quotes. Props to the writers, the voice actors, and whoever was directing them.
 
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By that point the graphics had reached the point of "good enough" for the 4X genre, and nobody has even come close to touching the technology quotes in that game. Anyone who says that Beyond Earth failed in part because people just can't relate to a civ unless it has an obvious real-world counterpart obviously never played Alpha Centauri, with those leaders dripping personality thanks to those tech quotes. Props to the writers, the voice actors, and whoever was directing them.

My favorite still has to be yang and the recycling plants.


Also the graphics part I think is a leak over from the fps genre, you cant get any more in depth than point you gun and shoot while moving around so graphics had to be the way they innovated. In something like a rts/tbs/4x there is theoretically no end to the depth you could put into one when trying to simulate the complexities of a nation states. But I think some of that was lost in trying to keep up with the graphics. Total war and Civilization being some notable 'casualties'.
 
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View attachment 224683 So, I noticed that three of the new traditions were "Harmony", "Supremacy", and "Purity". Sound familiar to anyone?

I did think of BE when reading the dev diary. That's okay though. However I feel like there should be more, like knowledge, survival, religion etc. And they should be restricted based on active governing ethics. Starting with moderate ethics (like just 1 regular one) will have more traditions open to you.

SOMETHING has to be done with traditions, feels too much like a stale social policies rip.
 
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Anyone who says that Beyond Earth failed in part because people just can't relate to a civ unless it has an obvious real-world counterpart obviously never played Alpha Centauri, with those leaders dripping personality thanks to those tech quotes. Props to the writers, the voice actors, and whoever was directing them.
I think that most people say that Beyond Earth failed because it was terribly bland and repetitive - including by comparison with Alpha Centauri. They didn't understand that they had either to develop the different factions and the choices they can take (and not use a three factions systems based almost solely on modifiers) or the planets we play in (with different kinds of ecosystems and so on). They seem to understand it eventually but it was too late.

Same thing is true for Stellaris : traditions need to be something more than just modifiers, it needs to have a impact on gameplay. It's like in a RPG : if your talent tree is just made of "+5 charisma", "+2 attack speed" or "+5 hit point for each killed enemy", it's not fun or interesting. But if it has "backstab", "exploding fireball" or "disguise", then we've got the opportunity to define our characters and we unlock new gameplay as we go.
Stellaris is too much about modifiers currently, and we need more exploding fireballs, and less "this tier 3 kinetic weapon is better than tier 2, but it does exactly the same thing". We also need more traits like "decadent", tied to specific ethics and/or government forms. I really hope that the Traditions aren't only sets of modifiers...
 
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I still think it was interesting how a game at that time had unit modularity, a bunch is interesting facttions, immersive (for me at least) diplomacy beyond just numbers, joint attacks, special project movies, a good narrative setting, and mind worms.

While its so called "spiritual successor" had barelay anything of it.
I honestly think Stellaris gives me a more SMAC feeling than BE.
 
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Most games I toss around on forums as being the greatest game of all time, I cannot bear with the low tech graphics or performance when attempting to replay.

Not the case with Alpha Centauri, which I replayed not too long ago. I'm both impressed and depressed how a 17 year old game is still standing the test of time.
I like Alpha Centauri no questions asked. I even bought it on GOG.com, when it was avalible. Just so I had a copy avalible for download.

However, I do see some flaws in it too. Flaws that were not used in later civilsiations games:
The Unit designer. My usual opinion is that Unit designers are just complexity without much depth. And that the AI can not realy use them anyway, so it looks even worse. This applies to at least the following games: SM's Alpha Centaui, Earth 21xx Series and Stellaris.

Psionic Combat. Both the mind worms and the later techs. While the idea was not bad, it caused to much chaos on the battlefield.

The Politics/Government System. While I loved how you could mix and match the 4 Areas with your Faction advantages, the complexity also meant a whole lot less Factions could be made. And again the AI was terrible at it and you propably just went for the "perfect build" anyway.

The Blind reserach. Especially with the overly complex and intertwined tech tree. I think Stellaris randomized, 3 tech at once and 3 card deck research is the much better brother to it.

Also the graphics part I think is a leak over from the fps genre, you cant get any more in depth than point you gun and shoot while moving around so graphics had to be the way they innovated. In something like a rts/tbs/4x there is theoretically no end to the depth you could put into one when trying to simulate the complexities of a nation states. But I think some of that was lost in trying to keep up with the graphics. Total war and Civilization being some notable 'casualties'.
Depth has to be measured against Complexity on a game design point of view. And there is only so much complexity where a game is still fun to play.
You need to know where the core engagement of your game is and focus most of your effort there. Having Civilisation units simulated to the last soldier would serve no gameplay purpose. It would be as useless as adding Ship Veterancy to Stellaris.

Interesting it appears the Civilsiation series is prone to Accretion. Extra Credits did an episode on it:

I did think of BE when reading the dev diary. That's okay though. However I feel like there should more, like knowledge, survival, religion etc. And they should be restricted based on active governing ethics. Starting with moderate ethics (like just 1 regular one) will have more traditions open to you.

SOMETHING has to be done with traditions, feels too much like social policies rip.
Government Ethics thus far were the most restricted things in the game. The rarest resource.
You got to choose 3. At the game start. You could never change them. That was it.
With the new Faction System and the abiltiy to change Government Ethos, that partially disolved. It is no longer the rarest resource. With the reduction of Pop Ethos to "one normal per pop", the system is also Simplified. While Traditions are acreted on top of it.

Traditions become the rarest resource instead. Increasing cost per step will incentivise focussing on one. And based on what I saw thus far, the Selection of a Ethos will be as or even more gamestyle defning as Ethos is now.
We also already saw clear focus on playstyles that were thus far based on Ethos. Collecitivist/Xenophobe is no longer defining for Slavery Empires. In part because Collectivist is now Authoritarian. In part because Unity now puts slavery onto the Domination Tradition.
Regarding the ones you want:
Knowledge is already there. It is called Discovery Tradition. And of course there is still the Materialist Ethos itself.
Survival is the implicit goal of every Government in Stellaris.
Religion is already covered by Spiritualist.
 
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"reached" its limit? How many Shakespear plays are there where he just thought up the plot on his own?
Heck, Westside Story is actually just a Reboot of Romeo and Juliet.
Rivaling clans is replaced by Rivaling Immigrant Groups.
And in the end both lovers die, due tue a misscommunication.
 
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Heck, Westside Story is actually just a Reboot of Romeo and Juliet.

Well to be fair Shakespeare's play was inspired by the poem by Arthur Brooke which was derived of a french translation of an italian poem by Luigi da Porto. That poem in turn was based on a story written by Masuccio Salernitano. Whom claimed it was based on a true™ story which took place during his life time. Although the modern structure was mostly implemented by Luigi da Porto. Shakespeare did add some extra characters otherwise the play would have been very bare bones.

In addition The Merchant of Venice, Much Ado About Nothing, All's Well That Ends Well, Measure for Measure are all derived of some form (through similar chains) from Italian stories.
 
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Most games I toss around on forums as being the greatest game of all time, I cannot bear with the low tech graphics or performance when attempting to replay.

Not the case with Alpha Centauri, which I replayed not too long ago. I'm both impressed and depressed how a 17 year old game is still standing the test of time.

No the test of time was the second civ game.
 
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Same thing is true for Stellaris : traditions need to be something more than just modifiers, it needs to have a impact on gameplay. It's like in a RPG : if your talent tree is just made of "+5 charisma", "+2 attack speed" or "+5 hit point for each killed enemy", it's not fun or interesting. But if it has "backstab", "exploding fireball" or "disguise", then we've got the opportunity to define our characters and we unlock new gameplay as we go.
Stellaris is too much about modifiers currently, and we need more exploding fireballs, and less "this tier 3 kinetic weapon is better than tier 2, but it does exactly the same thing". We also need more traits like "decadent", tied to specific ethics and/or government forms. I really hope that the Traditions aren't only sets of modifiers...

That's why i really hope that flesh tithe thing will stick making my xenophobe slave empire a possibility (along with sector AI improvements on slaves) I think that's a good direction to take tradition customization.


I still think it was interesting how a game at that time had unit modularity, a bunch is interesting facttions, immersive (for me at least) diplomacy beyond just numbers, joint attacks, special project movies, a good narrative setting, and mind worms.

While its so called "spiritual successor" had barelay anything of it.
I honestly think Stellaris gives me a more SMAC feeling than BE.

So true. I think everyone felt they hated Miriam at a personal level and not just ok that's an aggressive AI, yet at the same time each and every one of the factions (ok maybe besides Prokhor Zakharov until he has his tech-peen stroked and Brother Lal) had their own flavor of aggressiveness when they're out to get you.


However, I do see some flaws in it too. Flaws that were not used in later civilsiations games:
The Unit designer. My usual opinion is that Unit designers are just complexity without much depth. And that the AI can not realy use them anyway, so it looks even worse. This applies to at least the following games: SM's Alpha Centaui, Earth 21xx Series and Stellaris.

Psionic Combat. Both the mind worms and the later techs. While the idea was not bad, it caused to much chaos on the battlefield.

The Politics/Government System. While I loved how you could mix and match the 4 Areas with your Faction advantages, the complexity also meant a whole lot less Factions could be made. And again the AI was terrible at it and you propably just went for the "perfect build" anyway.

The Blind reserach. Especially with the overly complex and intertwined tech tree. I think Stellaris randomized, 3 tech at once and 3 card deck research is the much better brother to it.

Psionic combat was a plus for me, I loved the concept and played with it even when I'm not playing as Deidre. I think only as Santiago and Morgan I don't use it.

Unit designer - are you kidding? Despite the linearity in weapons and armor tech, Its still by far the most varied and flavorful unit modulation feature with the special ability slots! So much specialization you can do from artillary module, carrier, transport expansion, refueling/repair bay, PSI Defense/offense on a non-Psi unit, experience/morale boost, Anti-Air, speed boosts, etc. which Stellaris has the potential to tap in by offering more flavored variety of Auxiliary slots (instead of modifiers) and re-balancing them so it does not feel punishing when you don't take Shield Capacitors

Blind Research was optional toggle so I'm not sure where you're getting at counting it as a flaw. I actually liked the full blind research when I'm in a "hardcore" mood.

The Politics/Government system - there's multiple builds available and the fact that some options pisses off specific factions is part of what made SMAC successful because it built tension and actually force you to think about your choice. It's precisely WHY you shouldn't just go for the perfect build. Even among the "top builds" there's strong playstyle preferences. I enjoyed the "Green" build but not Morgan's free economy build because even though you can swim in credits and buy everything it caused so much trouble with fungus destroying your tile improvements.
 
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Unit designer - are you kidding? Despite the linearity in weapons and armor tech, Its still by far the most varied and flavorful unit modulation feature with the special ability slots! So much specialization you can do from artillary module, carrier, transport expansion, refueling/repair bay, PSI Defense/offense on a non-Psi unit, experience/morale boost, Anti-Air, speed boosts, etc. which Stellaris has the potential to tap in by offering more flavored variety of Auxiliary slots (instead of modifiers) and re-balancing them so it does not feel punishing when you don't take Shield Capacitors
The Artillery as a idea was nice. And did find it's way into the series as a whole.
Hovering/terrain skipping of some degrees also found it's way into the game.

But the rest of the designer options? Not a single one made it into a later Civilisations.
Psi Combat? Did not.
Most of the special Abilities? Not
A Veterancy system on that detail Level? Not.
Ability to design Units to that degree? Civ BE was the closest they ever tried to that again.

All a unit designer realy does is add uncertainty. Uncertainty if any given build is good. They tried to incentivise certain builds you would find in the other games via cost modifiers: Like the infantery defender with limited weapons. The high mobility, high damage, low defense Cavallery. The airforce with strong weapons, that was dead bird on the ground. But in the end just having those limited units is better balance wise.
 
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I actually kinda liked Beyond Earth.
I actually did too, to some degree. Even wrote a Steam Guide for it, like I did for Stellaris. Only lost interest when my friends did.

A lot of the Complaining on Steam was literally just "This is not Alpha Centauri 2".
When the game was never adverised as such.
Indeed I have yet to see any proof for that claim of it "being a spiritual successor to SMAC(X)". As far as I can tell people just imaginged it or missinterpreted something else entirely. And somehow arrived at a asumption this game never aimed to be.
 
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I actually did too, to some degree. Even wrote a Steam Guide for it, like I did for Stellaris. Only lost interest when my friends did.

A lot of the Complaining on Steam was literally just "This is not Alpha Centauri 2".
When the game was never adverised as such.
Indeed I have yet to see any proof for that claim of it "being a spiritual successor to SMAC(X)". As far as I can tell people just imaginged it or missinterpreted something else entirely. And somehow arrived at a asumption this game never aimed to be.

To be fair, with Firaxis making a tbs civ clone about colonizing an alien world, that's thematically very similar to their earlier game that everyone wants a sequel to, it's pretty easy to jump to that conclusion. I understand the devs wanted to make it seem like its own thing and avoid unfavorable comparisons, but I strongly doubt it would have been made if Firaxis had not made smac previously, and I also strongly doubt it wouldn't have been released as smac 2 if they hadn't lost the rights.

Anyway. Liking BE is hardly a crime. I didn't absolutely loathe it the first time around, even if it did make me appreciate smac even more, and I hear it's gotten a lot better since the expansion (at least judging by Steam score). Maybe I'll give it another go sometime.

EDIT: Also, and I will stand by this until my last breath: BE's soundtrack is VASTLY superior to SMAC's. No contest.
 
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I didn't mind Beyond Earth and got about 40 hours out of it before shelving it. It did feel like it was lacking a lot though, in a similar way as CIv 5 did at launch. Can't speak as to what the game is like post-expansion though as the price point didn't sit well with me.
 
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Traditions become the rarest resource instead. Increasing cost per step will incentivise focussing on one. And based on what I saw thus far, the Selection of a Ethos will be as or even more gamestyle defning as Ethos is now.

I think these sentences are completely incorrect. Traditions are unrestricted at the moment so you can get all of them with enough time and shrines of unity. You said it yourself, ethos are unchanging and limited to 3. How is that less rare and valuable than a feature that every empire will just auto-fill by the end game?

Knowledge is already there. It is called Discovery Tradition. And of course there is still the Materialist Ethos itself.

Probably the most convincing point you made. I was making examples and just ripping off the virtues from the Final Frontier BTS mod for Civ 4 to be honest. Knowledge and Discovery is more similar than they are different. Even though I would be more satisfied by changing it to "Exploration" and adding a 2nd Knowledge tradition.

Wealth was another virtue in the mod, that could be the economic growth tradition and a new Prosperity tree could focus on extra food, cheaper resettlement, reduced growth time. I think extra traditions and locking specific ones based on current governing ethics would be wise.

Survival is the implicit goal of every Government in Stellaris.

Science fiction and real life is full of examples of societies where that isn't a focus. A species that fights among themselves just for the sport and thrill, cannibals, making irrational choices based on some myth or superstition. The Aztecs are a great example, killing thousands of their own people in pointless rituals, and letting Spanish dudes into the city because they look like one of your gods. Terrible and by all standards highly uninstinctual for survival.

Religion is already covered by Spiritualist.

Religion =/= Spiritualist. Spiritualism is a vague term, but if Stellaris is going to use it we'll have to discuss it. It implies the use of intuition, synchronisty, revelation, vision, creativity, inspiration, epiphany instead of the opposite Materialism which uses method, observation, process, catalogue, etc.

None of it makes any implication on the species' dominant religious system or hierarchy or if there even is one. If you're any form of theocratic government maybe the top guy is the best at receiving visions and not navigating papal politics. This would look a lot like a technocratic government (science directorate). How does their head of church deal with heretics? What is the prevalence of heresy among the native population? "Ecumenism" comes to mind as a potential perk. You are assuming way too much with the term Religion than you are with Spiritualism and if your empire has a religion that can be defined through the Religion tradition.
 
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