Civil War Effects

[TheDerpyBeagle]

So this was something that I had on my mind and that I hope Paradox (or someone) can elaborate on. One of the most interesting new features from HOI4 is the changing party system, and in turn the possibility of a civil war arising from that ideology change. With that being said, I had some (possible) concerns about the system.

Firstly, how easy is the civil war itself to win? Historically, the only examples we have of civil wars in this time period are the Russian and Spanish, and Chinese civil wars, all of which took several years and were very bloody and destructive. Will the civil war system reflect this, and make it difficult to win? I hope so, especially since in most cases, the revolutionary side of the civil war would most likely be going up against the country's military, except in Franco's case.

Second, what are the economic/military/political consequences of a civil war? For example, after the Russian Civil War, the entire country was in disarray, and it took a long time to rebuild the infrastructure, industry, and military of the USSR. A civil war devastates a country, and I shouldn't be able to start a civil war out of the blue, then after I've won, and turned Fascist Germany into a Communist state, and then at once have all of my industry, military power, and national unity intact just like that. There should be serious consequences that cause you to have to rebuild your military and industry, and I shouldn't be able to be 100% prepared for another war right after suffering a Civil War,

Now, I'm not saying that changing parties should be impossible and the game should be railroaded. Because frankly, most radical changes like this, especially in countries like Germany would be historically impossible, especially considering Hitler gave the German communist leaders and supporters what I'll call permanent vacations as soon as he came to power, but for the sake of fun and gameplay, these choices are in the game. However, I should not be able to declare a revolution in Fascist Germany in 1936, win the civil war in 3 months, and then go on as if nothing has happened besides a flag design change.

In conclusion, I hope that civil wars truly do have consequence on a nation, are not a simple cakewalk, and are represented in a reasonable manner. If these things are already represented in the game, then great! However if my concerns expressed here are a reality, then I believe that there is a serious flaw with the game.

 

[Kozer]

There are two types. One where you manage to do a peaceful turnover like they did with red France. Or full scale war like with Spain. I can't remember the exact chances of either though

 

[PlayerHOI]

This is a question for the dev's since we haven't seen any spontaneous civil wars thus far.

The Spanish civil war is heavily scripted one so I don't think its an example of how a typical civil war will go in another country. I assume its a mechanic that will require further work after release as well as additions in the future because its hard to do someone generic like this for all countries.

Also, how will one province countries fight a civil war? That's going to be probably the shortest one in history

 

[kviiri]

You forgot the Greek civil war. And Finnish civil war that coincided with the Russian civil war. Quite likely a few others too.

 

[ViribusUnitis]

Well I think the main question is, do you want it as the player? Because as we saw with France, when you intend to turn the political system over, this can happen unbloody if you choose the right answers for the events. The problem with civil wars arise, when you get pressured from outside, and other countries are trying to turn you over.

 

[CHRIS3169]

Aside from infrastructure damaged in fighting like in any war, it probably depends on how many troops each side gets. In hoi3, playing as Spain was easy since you could just not deploy all the troops you build before the war, then not have to give half of them to the nationalists. It will probably switch troops to the enemy depending on how big the party they represent is, so it might be a good idea to get your party up as high as possible before attempting the coup.

If they could keep making enemy troops spawn for a year or 2, or your troops defect, even after conquering the entire country , then it would more closely represent the hit and run guerrilla style war most revolutions entail.

Also, a portion of your Navy and air force will defect, so even if you win, your country will be severely weakened since you won't get the majority of it back.

Manpower reserves should also factor in, since both sides are effectively drawing manpower from the same place, and should be pretty near wiped out in the aftermath of the war, severely hampering any immediate ambitions you may have.

Finally, after winning the civil war, your national unity will probably be very low, making a follow-up war pretty hard until you can get it to a higher level.

Does winning a civil war completely remove the political party you're fighting against? If not, then the enemy in the next war may try to institute a coup to aid them.

There's actually a lot of cool stuff they could add In the aftermath of a civil war. Maybe having your opposing faction join a like minded country.

You should get a penalty since some of your best officers, industrial scientists, and politicians will have fought for the opposing side and therefore won't be useful after winning since they'll be fired/exiled/killed/jailed. Adding a great purge style penalty for a few years would simulate this well.

Not to mention a lot of enemy troops should be banned from joining the army since their loyalty is in question, limiting your manpower.

They could make a whole dlc focused just on civil war mechanics, but probably won't since it wasn't very common in the period.

 

[kviiri]

Finally, after winning the civil war, your national unity will probably be very low, making a follow-up war pretty hard until you can get it to a higher level.

I think both being in a Civil War and the aftermath should increase National Unity. With a conflicting value system defeated, the surviving part of the country ought to be more morally homogenous.

 

[CHRIS3169]

I think both being in a Civil War and the aftermath should increase National Unity. With a conflicting value system defeated, the surviving part of the country ought to be more morally homogenous.

But the former supporters of your enemy will still exist, and disapprove of your leadership. Another thing for civil war dlc....post war re-education to increase national unity.

 

[kviiri]

But the former supporters of your enemy will still exist, and disapprove of your leadership. Another thing for civil war dlc....post war re-education to increase national unity.

Sure they exist, but in lesser numbers because many must've died in the war. Less people who'd dare to disagree --> more national unity.

 

[CHRIS3169]

Second, what are the economic/military/political consequences of a civil war? For example, after the Russian Civil War, the entire country was in disarray, and it took a long time to rebuild the infrastructure, industry, and military of the USSR. A civil war devastates a country, and I shouldn't be able to start a civil war out of the blue, then after I've won, and turned Fascist Germany into a Communist state, and then at once have all of my industry, military power, and national unity intact just like that. There should be serious consequences that cause you to have to rebuild your military and industry, and I shouldn't be able to be 100% prepared for another war right after suffering a Civil War,
.

In conclusion, I hope that civil wars truly do have consequence on a nation, are not a simple cakewalk, and are represented in a reasonable manner. If these things are already represented in the game, then great! However if my concerns expressed here are a reality, then I believe that there is a serious flaw with the game.

I totally agree. Spain was so devastated by the civil war, that even 5 years later they were unable to join the axis and contribute to the war effort, even when it seemed like Germany would conquer the world. This has never been properly represented in hoi, although it would make the game less fun, since getting in a civil war would basically make the country unplayable for the next decade.(which is perfectly realistic, but would suck in game)

 

[OBRkenobi]

I too hope that civil wars will have a substantial lasting impact in the game. Especially considering Spain was in absolutely no condition to fight another war after it's own civil war IRL.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

Is the Spanish Republic democratic or communist in-game? I think I saw it being communist on the France co-op stream, but I'm not sure that is a particularly good way of representing Spain. The Popular Front (a broad coalition) did have a communist wing, but that doesn't make Spain a communist state.

Thoughts?

 

[PlayerHOI]

Is the Spanish Republic democratic or communist in-game? I think I saw it being communist on the France co-op stream, but I'm not sure that is a particularly good way of representing Spain. The Popular Front (a broad coalition) did have a communist wing, but that doesn't make Spain a communist state.

Thoughts?

They are communist, there have been many debates about this but HOI's narrow political representation cannot truly represent it in a better way. Personally I would make them Neutral but I can understand why Paradox went with communist instead.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

They are communist, there have been many debates about this but HOI's narrow political representation cannot truly represent it in a better way. Personally I would make them Neutral but I can understand why Paradox went with communist instead.

Okay, thanks for the confirmation. I suppose it makes sense in terms of fascist vs. communist ideologies and civil war factions, etc.

 

[TheDerpyBeagle]

I think both being in a Civil War and the aftermath should increase National Unity. With a conflicting value system defeated, the surviving part of the country ought to be more morally homogenous.

I disagree. After the American Civil War, many southerners were still angry over losing their slavery rights and their independence, and remained so until the Union went through their process of re-integration of the Southern states. At first, your national unity should be quite low, but through events eventually the population will come around.