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blahmaster6k

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Two lines is thirty factories. But another eight for stukas, five or so for heavy fighters. That is before France surrenders. After another line of fighters, 10-12 or more on naval bombers.

And yes, Free France does takeoever indochina, doing Fall Gelb in middle March, Usually around end of May. Japan demands it in august though, so there is about a two month period where siamese rubber goes through convoys. In my current game, Free France also did Operation Torch around Set 40. . Did not work out well for them.

Hey if you like having convoys getting knocked out have it. Don't build refineries. I find they are necessary not just to not have to import them from covoys but because Siam just does not produce enough rubber to buy regardless.
I never said don't build refineries, I said don't build them first. They're necessary to have in the long term, but in the short term you want as much equipment ready before the war as possible, and getting 50 mils on tanks and planes each before you start building refineries can make a big difference. If you spend six months building refineries that's six months of lost production when you're on a close timetable. If you build your refineries after France falls instead though, you have a year before barb. During that year you can relax and get your rubber situation sorted out while your air force has nothing to do but intercept bombers.

I was negative 110 rubber after I declared war on the netherlands in my recent game, but it was fine because I had 4000 fully upgraded 1940 fighters already and the RAF didn't. I wouldn't have had 4000 fighters if I had built synthetic refineries first, but because I built mils I got to build up my factory efficiency much sooner. You can afford to have a production dip if you already have your needs met. My rubber stayed negative for a long time, several months in fact before I was able to fix it with enough refineries, but it didn't matter because my air force wasn't sustaining losses during that period. And even during the rubber shortage I just diverted all but 50 of my fighter factories onto tanks and the shortage wasn't even that bad, I was still making 4 fighters a day at -60 rubber.

This was my production queue in August 1940, about 2 months after I knocked out France:
1644256081479.png

Before the war I had 50 on medium tank 2 to start, then once I got fighter 2 I put the tanks down to 30 and threw everything onto fighters until I had 100 on fighters, then threw everything else on tanks from that point on. I only had 2 factories producing infantry-related equipment the whole time, everything else was for my tank divisions or planes.

And this was the production queue the same day I swapped half of the plane factories back onto tanks since they were basically useless without rubber:
1644256101714.png

In all honesty, I should have just done that way sooner and I have no idea why I didn't, I just wasn't paying attention. But the point is you can produce enough planes before you are cut off from trade to sustain you through the period when you have a rubber shortage. And in a MP game you'll have fighter 2 way earlier and the axis would probably have close to 15k of them as a faction before the war starts, way more than the Allies.
 
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Gefallener_Held

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I typically have 3.5-4 k upgraded me 109s by March 40, but don't lose weeks of production, and have the refineries needed regardless.
 
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blahmaster6k

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I typically have 3.5-4 k upgraded me 109s by March 40, but don't lose weeks of production, and have the refineries needed regardless.
There's a very big difference between 4k upgraded Me-109s and 4k upgraded Fw-190s. I don't produce 1936 fighters at all because they're so heavily outclassed. All that matters is who has more fighter 2s if you're playing against a human.
 

Voigt

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And well good to know that you speak about modded games with Expert AI instead of vanilla. This could explain the different behaviour of France, because what you described doesn't happen in vanilla.
 
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Gefallener_Held

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And well good to know that you speak about modded games with Expert AI instead of vanilla. This could explain the different behaviour of France, because what you described doesn't happen in vanilla.
This is incidental. AFAIK Free France can still demand or overtake vichy areas in Vanilla. It really does not matter though because
1) vichy does not have enough rubber to meet demand
2) Japan demands Indochina Autumn 40 anyway. You can trade with Japan of course, but with convoys and I beleive with less rubber available overall.

As far as tech rushing fw 109s in 1940, no thanks. Upgraded me 109s are more than enough for the task, are historical, and do not require sacrificing other techs.
 

CraniumMuppet

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Isn't it a bit hard to perform argumentation when someone has vastly different rules and expectation than others with arbitrary limitations set for themselves?
Its also a bit weird to assume that players would want to play exactly as yourself, which is rarely the case

Besides I don't think that OP with 100 hours in plays with expert AI and you can assume he is playing vanilla. This all might just as well just cause a lot of confusion on his/hers part
 
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Gefallener_Held

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Isn't it a bit hard to perform argumentation when someone has vastly different rules and expectation than others with arbitrary limitations set for themselves?
Its also a bit weird to assume that players would want to play exactly as yourself, which is rarely the case

Besides I don't think that OP with 100 hours in plays with expert AI and you can assume he is playing vanilla. This all might just as well just cause a lot of confusion on his/hers part
My rules and expectations are not vastly divergent. Some agree, others don't. Does not matter to me either way. Others are harping about expert ai, which is tangential at best, bc either way, Siam with or without rubber from Indochina will not be enough.
 
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blahmaster6k

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As far as tech rushing fw 109s in 1940, no thanks. Upgraded me 109s are more than enough for the task, are historical, and do not require sacrificing other techs.
Fw 190s are a 1940 tech so I don't really understand what your complaint is about. I did tech rush them and had them in January 39, but what you say here doesn't make much sense.

As a curiosity, why do you think research bonuses exist? To me it seems like they're pretty much there for the exclusive purpose of allowing you to get techs faster and ahead of time. The game is designed for you to get important techs ahead of time. And after NSB, the new air spirit gives an extra 15% air research speed making it even easier.

As for sacrificing other techs, the only techs you sacrifice aren't important ones to have. All techs are not created equal, and some are more important than others. It just makes sense to get the important ones sooner and the unimportant ones later or never.

You probably would be averse to my playstyle, but when I play Germany I never have more than 5 factories on guns the entire game, often only keeping 1 factory on them. You can fully equip 120 infantry divisions with just guns you get from Austria, Czech, Poland, and the Low Countries, which pretty much makes it pointless to research infantry techs yourself and saves you a ton of research. You get another 120 divisions worth of guns when you capitulate France. I had 240 infantry divisions for barbarossa in my last game with only one factory on guns the entire time. Same for navy, you really don't need to get any naval techs as Germany except maybe submarines. Sometimes I just completely ignore it and build sub 2s with techs that you start with for the entire game.

Doctrines aren't techs anymore, pretty much the only techs you need to research are industry, electronics, air, tanks, the AT tree for guns for your tanks, and support companies. With 5 research slots that's more than enough to get everything you need in plenty of time even if you research fighters and tanks ahead of time.
 
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And after NSB, the new air spirit gives an extra 15% air research speed making it even easier.

I was going to say that it's not that hard for Germany to farm the required air XP to get this national spirit, but then swap it out for something else when you aren't researching planes.

You probably would be averse to my playstyle, but when I play Germany I never have more than 5 factories on guns the entire game, often only keeping 1 factory on them.

1644350889865.png


I know what you are saying, though. I'm not the most efficient German player when it comes to infantry kits. I have enough bad experiences where I'm either running out of kits at inconvenient times, or I'm overflowing with infantry kits I don't need. I end up settling on 15 MIC on kits that gets shunted to Tier 2 at some point before Barbarossa. I could probably be much better at optimization in this regard if I really wanted.

Then again, theater view isn't showing losses correctly, so I'm not even sure if I need more or fewer kits at some points in the campaign.
 
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Gefallener_Held

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You could make a variant of the FW190 and call it something else. Or is it the picture you find offensive?
I've explained it half a dozen times:

- Me 109s are integral to the Luftwaffe and the Third Reich, esp in 1940. FW 190s do not belong in that stage of the war. I don't even like having them in 41 but that's too much of a sacrifice.
- lvl ii more than good enough
- tech rushing sacrifices other important techs, and is often a race to the bottom exploit
 
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blahmaster6k

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I'm overflowing with infantry kits I don't need. I end up settling on 15 MIC on kits that gets shunted to Tier 2 at some point before Barbarossa. I could probably be much better at optimization in this regard if I really wanted.
Yeah, I did eventually add a few more factories to guns, after I conscripted an extra 120 divisions for my Atlantic wall I only had a 7k stockpile left so I decided to build more. But I did collaboration governments so the resistance wasn't very significant and I never noticed a shortage. I probably also could have used a quarter of those divisions and just put them on ports instead of guarding the entire coast and not needed to make guns at all.

Then again, I probably should have been exercising my army the whole game, maybe I would have actually finished my doctrine then. I'm still trying to figure out the best way to get army experience, since wiping out armies quickly with tanks seems to be less than ideal in that regard. Ironically it might be meta to grind Poland with infantry to get exp, but I haven't tested it.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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Is there any particular reason you're using cav for occupations?

I THINK that means garrisons, rather than physically taking provinces. Cav garrison usually gets the job done without too much fuss or expense, especially if you get some compliance from collaboration.