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Yik Lin

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New to HoI4 (only 100+ hours of play), so I have a noob qn:

I just noticed something that doesn't quite make sense.

If I build a Civ Fac, I can use it to trade for 8 oil which translates to 8 x 48 = 384 units of fuel (even with no upgrades), plus a Civ Fac is more versatile.
If I build a Refinery, I get 48 units of fuel. Even with full upgrades, that is only 120 units for fuel.

So other than a fear that others may not want to trade with me, won't building a Civ Fac almost always make more sense?


Yiren.
 

Dimmie_Dumm

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So other than a fear that others may not want to trade with me, won't building a Civ Fac almost always make more sense?
This is a valid concern already, plus Refineries get you some Rubber to boot.

IaAK2fr.jpg
 
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Oil you trade for needs to be shipped in. And, if there is no valid land connection for that trade route, it gets shipped overseas with your convoys. Which can be interdicted and sunk by the enemy navy.
 
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Yeah, I've tried going for refineries as the UK so I wouldn't need to ship oil in from the US. It's not worth it - the amount of researching you need to do is prohibitive, and you should really be spending your production on military factories instead of refineries.

Another big thing is that refineries give you a constant supply of oil, while trade can give you as much or as little as you want - important if you need to fuel your doomstack for a week or two.

Short version is that refineries are really only there for countries with no access to oil from trade, or very late-game with all the techs unlocked. Everyone else should just buy oil from the USA and USSR.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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A refinery is basically 1 oil by default. Not 1 civ factory's worth (aka 8), literally 1. It gets a bit better with all of the techs, but remains weaker than a single oil trade, by a lot. Oil trades give more fuel with techs too.

On the other hand, without refineries, rubber is concentrated in areas that are hard to reach/often require shipping. Refineries give useful quantities of rubber with those upgrades, so rubber should be the primary reason to build them. The fuel production is more of a bonus/extra, or if you're doing mods with different resource distributions/less oil.

I usually do not build refineries. I have built them on modded maps, or as Axis minors that need rubber for a transition into plane production, but didn't/couldn't snipe Netherlands for DEI before the war.
 
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One thing to keep in mind is your trade law too. If you stay on Export Focus like a lot of countries start on (or change to Free Trade like many players do), the amount of rubber you are able to keep for yourself and use is severely diminished, lowering the value of refineries.

I guess theoretically you could end up ‘selling’ your produced rubber to other nations, but this is extremely unreliable (unless youre playing multiplayer)

Generally speaking, its not worth building refineries unless you straight up are being denied getting sufficient oil or rubber via trade. The Axis might find value in this since youll be at war with everyone that has these resources, otherwise its really not an issue, unless Germany is having massive success in convoy raiding or Japan is on a warpath and have stolen all the rubber and oil in the East Indies/India region (which did happen historically, but is not a given in-game)

Even when I play as Germany I dont need to bother building them. You can KO mainland Europe in like two weeks with just Romanian and middle eastern oil, and if youve built up enough of an air force prior to war breaking out you should be able to crack Britain when theyre too focused on Italy and North Africa. This is not a guarantee though. The rubber is the real issue for them.
 
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Ffire

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Another minor factor is that a civilian factory add to your factory count. So a "part" of your new CIV is used for consumer goods (that part depends from your economic law). Refinery does not add to your factory count, so you get full use of it.
The consumer goods % is most often between 10 to 30%, so a civ will give you approximatively only 5 to 7 ressources.
 
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Secret Master

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I did an analysis of rubber versus just importing rubber with 1939 rubber techs.


The OP's question is a relevant one, as I thought about it myself.

My economic tests concluded a few things.

1) Even with a +2 to rubber from a focus, they don't pay off in enough time to matter unless you close your trade. They will eventually pay off, but we're talking several years. And at that point, you could have invested that IC into something else that might win the war sooner.

2) The research cost is substantial if you boost both fuel and rubber.

3) The factory slots you burn on synthetic plants are an opportunity cost that matters a lot in longer games. So, even if you are focusing on the long game (which makes sense in this scenario), you still have to weigh the "savings" in import costs with the factory slots you give up.

4) If you think you might run out of rubber to import (due to Japan stealing it or whatever), a preemptive rubber building program can save you some heartache. The last thing you want is 100 MIC on planes grinding to a halt for 70 days while you build synthetic plants in an emergency.

5) Synthetic fuel, in a historical game, is ususally not worth spamming for itself. Due to how Germany can import from the Middle East, and due to how easily Japan can occupy oil, there's no reason to spam synthetic plants just for fuel. They can provide a nice bump, but nothing mandatory.

You will eventually save CIC on imports that equals the cost of the synthetic plants you build.

You figure the cost of the synthetic plants, then compare it to the rubber they give you (not total rubber, but the rubber you get at the current trade law), and compute that against the CIC required to import the rubber over time.

Let me give an example:

Let's take the Soviet Union with 1939 IC techs and synthetic rubber techs.

View attachment 603711

Okay, so at those techs, in Moscow (a state with 80% infrastructure), 15 CIC generate 189 construction speed, which will take 76.71 days to complete (which, in HOI4, is 77 days) given a construction cost of 14500.

That's 15 CIC per day, though, so we need to break that down to 1 CIC per day for comparison purposes, since 1 CIC will generate 8 rubber per day for imports. So, 1 CIC per day will generate 12.6 construction speed (189 construction speed / 15 CIC). At that speed, it will take 1,151 days to complete (14,500 cost / 12.6 construction speed instead of 189 construction speed).

Okay, so it takes 1 CIC 1151 days to finish the synthetic plant. That 1 CIC could just buy 8 rubber for 1151 days.

But....

... At 1939 techs, you only get 3 rubber. So, even when that 1 CIC finishes the synthetic plant, it's not as efficient as buying 8 rubber.

But...

... Unless your economy is closed, you are also exporting that rubber.

So, in our example, the Soviet Union is sitting on Export focus, so that 3 rubber really equals 1.5 rubber per day. So, we need to multiply that time to build the synthetic plant by 5.3 (due to the difference between 8 rubber for 1 CIC and 1.5 rubber for 1 CIC) to give us the time it would take the synthetic rubber plant to pay for itself.

That's 6,138 days. o_O

So, yes, it will eventually pay for itself. Just not by 1945.

This is also modified again if someone buys your exported rubber. If 100% of your exported rubber is purchased, you don't have to worry about the rubber you "lose" from exports. In that case, we redo the math with 3 rubber (since all rubber is being used or bought). That's a 2.66 increase in the 1151 days due to dividing the 8 rubber you get from purchases by the 3 rubber the plant produces and sells. That gives us 3069 days until it pays itself off. So, that's around 8.4 years.

That's still beyond 1945.

But...

... If you get a boost to rubber output via NF and reduce your exports, it changes the math.

If the Soviets got the same NF that Germany does, and if they stepped down to Limited Exports, they are now producing 5 rubber per day per plant at 1939 techs.

If you use or sell 100% of the rubber in this scenario, you are looking at 8 rubber from purchases divided by 5 rubber used or sold from the synthetic plant. That's 1.6 times the 1151 days for 1 CIC to build a synthetic plant, yielding 1841 days to pay it off. That's 5 years.

If you can't sell it all, you need to dump 25% of the output out of the equation. That gives us 5 rubber modified by the 15% you didn't sell, which gives us 3.75 rubber a day. That's 2.13 times the 1151 days you spent 1 CIC to build a synthetic plant, yielding 2455 days to pay off the plant. That's 6.72 years.

Obviously, if you build the plants at 1941 techs (or higher) and research more rubber output sooner (so that the extra output applies from day 1 of the plant being built), the plants pay for themselves sooner. But unless you can use and sell 100% of the output of those plants (at whatever trade law you have), they won't pay for themselves any time during a typical war.

The irony is that Germany and its boost to rubber output, plus being one of the only trading partners for the European Axis, means that it can get those plants to pay for themselves within a reasonable amount of time. No one else really can unless they build very late and research those rubber techs to high levels.

This discussion should also highlight the power of that boost to rubber output that Germany gets. +2 rubber makes a huge difference when it comes to synthetic plants.

basically, synthetic plants aren’t economically efficient unless you are playing well past 1945 and have solid techs. It would be better to just import rubber with CIC.
 
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Yik Lin

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Thanks, Dimmie Dumm, JPD, Gort 11, The Mein Team, Porkchop Sandwiches, Ffire, and Secret Master, for the insightful discourse. It does confirm some of my own thoughts about this choice. :D
 
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Vril266

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Hi,

to answer your question:

Always trade it, if you can. You get way more out of it. So you also need to research just 1 tech and not 3 ;)
You should only build refineries if you play a country which has no access to oil and can barley import it.

So if you play a country like germany.. Then you need refineries.
Do the following at beginning, try to trade your oil and rubber. Try to stop with at beginning/middle of 39.

You need to star to produce refineries massively to build up the luftwaffe (airforce) The oil is not even the problem, cause you can trade and save it for not much. So you will have enough oil till 40 if you trade it till the war breaks out but the rubber is the issue.

To be most efficiency it's most important that you use the refineries with the higher techs (39 tech and above)
So you need to learn this. Learning how much refineries you need to start to build so that they are rdy in mid/end of 39, if your tech is rdy at the same time;) Some even go t o ig farben and not krupp. I prefer krupp.

Also very important: use the 300% research speed for the expensive oil tech (the one on the right side cause so you can save a lot of ic since you can start to build refineries a bit later) Very important. If you have small lacks of oil duing this time. You can import somebit from middle east. Oil is never the real prob. Rubber is ^.^
 
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Xinamon

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New to HoI4 (only 100+ hours of play), so I have a noob qn:

I just noticed something that doesn't quite make sense.

If I build a Civ Fac, I can use it to trade for 8 oil which translates to 8 x 48 = 384 units of fuel (even with no upgrades), plus a Civ Fac is more versatile.
If I build a Refinery, I get 48 units of fuel. Even with full upgrades, that is only 120 units for fuel.

So other than a fear that others may not want to trade with me, won't building a Civ Fac almost always make more sense?


Yiren.
If you want fuel from refineries you will need A LOT of refineries. Only use refineries for rubber and see the fuel as an added bonus.
 
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It is not about economy, it is about ability to trade. Yes, trade is always economically preferable, But in historical settings Axis have no enough Oil and Rubber available to trade.
So, you either have to secure Oil and rubber or spend your civs to build refineries and a huge amount of research to make them reasonable. That is default strategic disadvantage of Axis and advantage of Allies.
If you play Germany, refineries are your only choice, as Romania does not have enough Oil for you and you cut of of the rest from start of ww2.
That why if you play Italy I advice you secure Oil and Rubber for axis, by puppeting Iran and Iraq before ww2, Occupying Suet's before War with Soviet Union and occupying Ceylon and Hong Cong after. You will made all Axis so much more powerful, by solving all it logistic problems
 
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pro.gamer.69

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you generally don't even need to invade the Middle East to get oil as Germany, trade alone should be plenty. rubber is the real issue, for that I recommend just killing the Allies quickly and then warring everyone else after the peace conference.
 

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Have to disagree with some posts. Playing Germany there is no other choice than build refineries bc of rubber shortages. Once you have three full lines of fighters, 10-14 factories on naval bombers and mechanized, Siam does not produce enough rubber tomeet demand. Refineries are the only way.
 
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CraniumMuppet

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Have to disagree with some posts. Playing Germany there is no other choice than build refineries bc of rubber shortages. Once you have three full lines of fighters, 10-14 factories on naval bombers and mechanized, Siam does not produce enough rubber tomeet demand. Refineries are the only way.
The vast majority of players aren't playing as Germany though and since OP did not specify country the posts do give the correct answer for most countries. Even if he did play as Germany its important for new players to understand when synths are useful, and not just build them willy nilly.

Germany is one of the few countries where synths makes sense because of its political situation, its focus that gives +2 rubber from synths and its large industrial base. For most other countries it makes less sense. Synths are also only really worth it for the rubber generally, not fuel since even the axis usually have access to some fuel source
 
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The vast majority of players aren't playing as Germany though and since OP did not specify country the posts do give the correct answer for most countries. Even if he did play as Germany its important for new players to understand when synths are useful, and not just build them willy nilly.

Germany is one of the few countries where synths makes sense because of its political situation, its focus that gives +2 rubber from synths and its large industrial base. For most other countries it makes less sense. Synths are also only really worth it for the rubber generally, not fuel since even the axis usually have access to some fuel source
There are posts however claiming refineries are unnecessary for Germany, which I disagree with.
 
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Secret Master

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To clarify my previous post:

I'm not saying don't build synthetic plants. I'm saying "Don't build synthetic plants because you think it'll be a solid financial investment; build them because there just isn't any other source of rubber."

Related point: you can also harvest a decent amount of fuel from them if you develop them enough. Both the synthetic techs and the regular fuel refining techs boost synthetic plant fuel output. A lot of players don't need the extra fuel, but it does happen. In my recent German game, I faced the prospect of burning well over a million units of fuel in two months. I went from having a full fuel stockpile to around 50% of my stockpile by day 31 of Barbarossa. Yes, there are things I could have done to optimize fuel use, but I did end up building additional synthetic plants for fuel and not just rubber. It was purely a stopgap measure to keep the tanks and planes rolling until we finished wiping the Red Army and took Baku.

Barbarossa D+31

The Soviets have lost 500,000 men. But this is without having finally eliminated the divisions in the big pocket.

View attachment 798523

This pocket will continue to drain my time, divisions, and air power. And it is at this point that experienced players will point out that if I had divided up the pocket, it would clear faster. But this is what you get when you are only half paying attention and just focusing on getting large encirclements.

We are on the way to Leningrad without too much opposition.

View attachment 798524

But what is more interesting is how stretched the Red Army is becoming just to the south:

View attachment 798525

As we push to Minsk, we are stretching the lines thinner. The Red Army still holds Brest Litovsk, but it is at this point that I realize I don’t need to push that hard in the middle. Progress has been slow since a lot of divisions and planes are tied up clearing the big pocket, but now I deliberately slow down my progress in the middle.

We are also trying to drive to Kiev, but the panzers there finally ran out of gas and require refueling. This slows us down a bit, and it illustrates that when panzers pause to refuel, you need to let them fill up completely. Half-measures yield few returns.

This is also the point where I begin to realize that I might not have enough fuel on hand to run Barbarossa indefinitely. If you look at the fuel indicator at the top of the screen, you will see that I’ve already burned almost half my fuel. Part of this is due to the 1000 fighters exercising in Berlin that could instead be on intercept. But the other issue is that Iran has no fuel to sell and Romania lost one level of infrastructure due to bombing, so they have less to sell. I’ve already begun construction of additional synthetic plants that should complete before I run out of fuel. But I am also beginning to look at ways to further economize fuel. You can't refuel panzers for offensives if there just isn't any fuel.

We finally take Kiev on July 10th:

View attachment 798527

That’s a weak sauce encirclement, but it’s important to take Kiev for logistics reasons. This also shows how the Red Army is starting to become unable to hold their lines. This will become important in a month.

Barbarossa D+51

We finally clear the big pocket.

View attachment 798529

It is going to take some time to redeploy those divisions to useful areas, but that victory puts us at 1 million Red Army losses. Given that I estimate the Red Army was around four million at the start of the war, this is a disaster for the Soviets.

But look at what else is cooking:

View attachment 798530

We have been counter-encircled in Minsk, but I open that back up quickly. But you will notice that I have pushed north from Kiev. Again, we are following railways as we prep a new encirclement. I’d prefer not to fight through the swamps, but if I can link Gomel and Minsk, I will bag all those Soviet divisions.

In other news, Leningrad has fallen:

View attachment 798531

The Red Army has managed to create a new line to defend Moscow here, but with Leningrad under out control, we can ship tons of supplies through there. If we attack along railways towards Moscow, we should be able to maintain supply. I end up not choosing to attack Moscow from this direction for complicated reasons, but it's an option.

This front might look dangerously thin on my side, but the Red Army doesn't really have an opportunity to push back in this particular case. In fact, if they had done so, I might have bagged more divisions in that micro-encirclement you see there.
 
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To clarify my previous post:

I'm not saying don't build synthetic plants. I'm saying "Don't build synthetic plants because you think it'll be a solid financial investment; build them because there just isn't any other source of rubber."

Related point: you can also harvest a decent amount of fuel from them if you develop them enough. Both the synthetic techs and the regular fuel refining techs boost synthetic plant fuel output. A lot of players don't need the extra fuel, but it does happen. In my recent German game, I faced the prospect of burning well over a million units of fuel in two months. I went from having a full fuel stockpile to around 50% of my stockpile by day 31 of Barbarossa. Yes, there are things I could have done to optimize fuel use, but I did end up building additional synthetic plants for fuel and not just rubber. It was purely a stopgap measure to keep the tanks and planes rolling until we finished wiping the Red Army and took Baku.
Hi secretmaster,

I was not alluding to your post. For the Axis, it is a financial investment by getting rubber that is just not available and maximizes investment in mics by bring able to produce what you need.
 
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There are posts however claiming refineries are unnecessary for Germany, which I disagree with.
It's only true where you break from focus tree and blitz out allies with a surprise sea lion landing years early. When you do this, you eliminate relevant naval pressure on convoys, and you will have tons of both oil and rubber.

Most people don't play that way every game, though.
 
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It's only true where you break from focus tree and blitz out allies with a surprise sea lion landing years early. When you do this, you eliminate relevant naval pressure on convoys, and you will have tons of both oil and rubber.

Most people don't play that way every game, though.
Unless you take the Dutch East Indes, Siam and later Japan do not have enough rubber to sell your whether UK is still in the war or not.