Citizen Service requires Oligarchy OR democracy?

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MarKr

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Hi,
the Citizen Service civic is clearly inspired by the Starshiptroopers books/films (the icon of the civic, the description text...). In this case, I wonder why the civic requires Oligarchy OR Democracy when one of the ideas expressed in the book/film is that "democracy is weak". Shouldn't the requirement be only Oligarchy? Democracy would say that every person should have same rights etc., but in the story of Starshiptroopers only citizens who served were allowed to vote and gained all sorts of benefits.

Given the governent types in Stellaris, I would say that "Oligarchy only" would fit the Starshiptrooper system the most, if it is meant to "simulate" that plot line.

This is of course no big deal, I just noticed the requiremnt for Democracy does not fit with the universe the civic is inspired by.
 

LeSingeAffame

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Twogs

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Democracy would say that every person should have same rights etc.,

No in a democracy every CITIZEN has the same right. But it doesn't state which people actually are citizens. Thats exactly what is done with citizen service. As long as you do your part, you are considered a citizen and have full rights. Everyone else does not. There are examples of this in real life, too.

Want to know more?
 

Mastikator

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TheTam

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Well all people have the same basic rights in a democracy, but citizens have more rights. For example only citizens are allowed to vote or run for office or can get certain jobs
 

Secret Master

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Democracy means that every citizen has the same rights, you don't have to be egalitarian to be a democracy. You can be a fanatical purifier and a democracy even.

Yep.

I have a few empires with democratic governments that enslave or outright purge aliens. I even had a democratic fanatical purifier. Imagine those debates in Space Parliament for a moment:

"Prime Minister, I'd like to thank the Purge All the Xenos by Fire Party for giving me time on the floor to state our position. It is the position of the Purge All Xenos by Processing Party that exterminating the xenos through the use of nuclear fire is typical of the Prime Minister's wasteful policies. What else can we expect from the Prime Minister who ordered the navy to turn a perfectly habitable world into a tomb world because she couldn't be bothered to fund the army properly? It's stupid and pointless. We should instead purge xenos through processing them. The Space NHS even postulates that the extra food generated by processing the xenos into McDonald's hamburgers would improve our population growth substantially. Furthermore, processing them into food instead of killing them instantly with nuclear weapons makes them suffer more. And let's be honest with ourselves. Our Founding Fathers were all about making aliens suffer. In conclusion, I'd like to state that the only thing the government and opposition agree on is Space Carthage delenda est. Thank you."
 

MarKr

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It is funny, how people often catch on some detail or thing of lesser importance :D Yeah, I got it wrong on the "every person would have same rights" part, but the main point was that the civic is inspired by the Starshiptroopers and there it is said clearly that their system is not democracy, thus it is weird that the civic is available to democracies.

Too bad it's such a weak civic, it really needs buffed.
Yeah, I've tried to mod in a tweaked idea that I found here on the forum - the civic would cause Fortresses to provide +3 unity and also +1 to Society and Engineering. So actually focusing on fortress spam can be viable. It is still in testing but looks quite cool sofar :)
 

InvisibleBison

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It is funny, how people often catch on some detail or thing of lesser importance :D Yeah, I got it wrong on the "every person would have same rights" part, but the main point was that the civic is inspired by the Starshiptroopers and there it is said clearly that their system is not democracy, thus it is weird that the civic is available to democracies.
Being inspired by a thing is not the same as being the thing. Citizen Service is a civic for countries where citizenship is earned by military service. It's not intended to be a one-to-one recreation of the government from Starship Troopers, even though that is what inspired the civic.
 

Cat_Fuzz

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Being inspired by a thing is not the same as being the thing. Citizen Service is a civic for countries where citizenship is earned by military service. It's not intended to be a one-to-one recreation of the government from Starship Troopers, even though that is what inspired the civic.

Furthermore, there's nothing stopping you as a player to play as either an oligarchic human race which is the same canon as Starship Troopers OR as another race altogether who believe that democracy is paramount, but that military service is a requirement to better understand ones position in that society (like Switzerland, who have mandatory military service)
 

Scholar-at-Arms

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It is funny, how people often catch on some detail or thing of lesser importance :D Yeah, I got it wrong on the "every person would have same rights" part, but the main point was that the civic is inspired by the Starshiptroopers and there it is said clearly that their system is not democracy, thus it is weird that the civic is available to democracies.

In the passages in the book criticising democracy, RAH was talking about the systems of democracy existing in the USA and Europe at the time (1959), and the so-called 'democratic ideals' which were, more or less, what you said: "every person should have the same rights.' The book was criticising those ideals and that's what it dismissed "democracy." Despite that, the system as described fits what Stellaris calls a democracy, which is quite a bit broader than the mid-20th century Western notions of democracy entailed. We don't really get a close look at the inner workings of the Federation in Starship Troopers, but either Democracy or Oligarchy in Stellaris terms could describe it, so we get both.
 

Little Green Mensch

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Oligarchies restrict political power and authority to a fairly small number of citizens, often those with wealth. In democracies, on the other hand, sovereignty rests with the entire citizenry.

Most historical democracies, because of the difficulties of putting every policy to a popular vote, instead elect representatives to a legislative assembly. (As an aside, these elected representatives may eventually degenerate into oligarchs).

The Federation in Starship Troopers is probably more democratic than oligarchic, though it is hard to be sure from the book.
 

ArcticISAF

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I have to disagree with the OP about 'it is said clearly that their system is not democracy' - Heinlein argued against the 'unlimited democracies of the 20th century', where people were granted the franchise of voting without any effort or sacrifice given to it by the people (simply given when you come to age). Thus no true value was held for the ability and right to vote.

In the book, you were a civilian until you passed the rigor to become a citizen. If I remember right, 2 years of service needed. Anybody could become a citizen, even if you were without limbs, or dumb as a rock, etc. You would be given some role, even if it was not prestigious (like experimental medical test subject). As long as you were deemed capable of understanding what you signing up for. The important thing is that you committed yourself in service of something greater than your mere self - society. Commitment to the greater whole of humanity.

And a key function is that if you chose to not go through with this and remain a civilian, you were provided the same rights and protections as any other - bar the franchise of voting.

I would argue this version is a more enhanced vision of democracy, rather than considered oligarchic in any consideration.
Oligarchy is restricted to a few elites that are considered above and responsible for key parts of a nation (could be military, economic, or stratified as nobles, religious leaders, etc.). The democracy and right to vote here is available to anyone, and equal in nature. The population percent that can vote is only restricted by who wishes to enlist.

----
For fun reading. And free book link if anyone wants to read. https://wrathoftheawakenedsaxon.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/starship_troopers_-_robert_heinlein.pdf

"Now here are we with still another system... and our system works quite well. Many complain but none
rebel; personal freedom for all is greatest in history, laws are few, taxes are low, living standards are as
high as productivity permits, crime is at its lowest ebb. Why? Not because our voters are smarter than
other people; we’ve disposed of that argument. Mr. Tammany can you tell us why our system works
better than any used by our ancestors?"

I don’t know where Clyde Tammany got his name; I’d take him for a Hindu. He answered, "Uh, I’d
venture to guess that it’s because the electors are a small group who know that the decisions are up to
them... so they study the issues."

"No guessing, please; this is exact science. And your guess is wrong. The ruling nobles of many another
system were a small group fully aware of their grave power. Furthermore, our franchised citizens are not
everywhere a small fraction; you know or should know that the percentage of citizens among adults
ranges from over eighty per cent on Iskander to less than three per cent in some Terran nations yet
government is much the same everywhere. Nor are the voters picked men; they bring no special wisdom,
talent, or training to their sovereign tasks. So what difference is there between our voters and wielders of
franchise in the past? We have had enough guesses; I’ll state the obvious: Under our system every voter
and officeholder is a man who has demonstrated through voluntary and difficult service that he places the
welfare of the group ahead of personal advantage."

"And that is the one practical difference."
 

Sinister2202

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In the book, it is explained that Rico's parents are wealthy but are not citizens and henceforth they have no right to vote. They however buy their way into services given to citizens. I believe the system is more of a democratic republic, rather than pure democracy (which no one in their right mind practices these days in our own world, as that would be insanity).