Cities Skylines is really Cities in Motion 3

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Borrego6165

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Introduction
Let's cut to the chase, because you don't need me to tell you that CS has bigger maps, a massively better modding community and much more control over transport. In fact before I even continue I will spoil from this review that I do prefer Cities Skylines over SimCity. But, there are issues with Cities Skylines that we should not ignore.

History
Let's take a quick history lesson. A couple of years back, Colossal Order released Cities in Motion 2. It was deemed too complicated and not very fun, but it still appealed to the hardcore gamers. Moving to 2015, we now have Cities Skylines. For this game, the developers decided to simplify the transport management part of the game in order to make it more accessible. Most importantly, they also did this to make it more fun. Ultimately, they succeeded; we now have a very addictive and still in depth transport simulation.

Unfortunately, they got a little carried away with this process. Instead of just simplifying what was overly complicated from the last game, they also decided to simplify the management of your cities from the other SimCity games. The result: imagine playing Transport Tycoon Deluxe, but every so often between placing new rail junctions or adding new bus routes you have to destroy a load of abandoned buildings because you ignored an annoying bird telling you to build a new clinic or fire station.

Main Point
With mods in Cities Skylines you can make bulldozing automatic, and you can also disable the chirper. However, this creates a new problem: you do not know when these problems will occur, and you'll have to deal with large abandoned areas.

Another issue is this: The district tool with its policies does not have much effect. The transport related policies like "Ban Heavy Traffic" do work well, but non-transport related seem to cancel themselves out. For example, if your citizens are getting upset because garbage is not getting collected, you can enact a pet ban to reduce the garbage production. However, this also reduces happiness, and so the effect is cancelled out! This is the same with many of the policies, where they either cancel themselves out or they make such a small difference that they are not worth it.

So instead, your goal is to replicate an existing building every time a resident tells you to do so. The problem is that unlike SimCity where services would only get busy during the day, in Cities Skylines due to the nature of the simulation being constant, it means that the rate of use constantly rises. This results in every time you building a new area of the city, you have to build a new landfill, clinic, high school, elementary school, police station, fire station and cemetery. It gets very repetitive, whereas at least in SimCity the modules make this less repetitive. I also noticed that whilst my hospitals had plenty of capacity, there was no way of me adding more ambulances to reach further away houses that weren't getting coverage unless I added a new clinic (and making the overcapacity even higher). I could have increased the budget, but it's a little confusing what the budget does. The budget is also global, so it would be a waste of money for services that don't need it.

Overall, Cities Skylines has a very fleshed out transport system but a tedious, and empty city management system. While SimCity has "less", it also has more. CS has reskins of the industrial zones for its specializations that "slightly" affect your city (see the tooltips for the much repeated word "slightly"), as well as broken tourism and quite basic services; whereas, SC has fleshed out every system with the exception of transport! How frustrating for us players!

Ultimately CS is more fun than SC because of the freedom, but when you really think about it CS is like a wide, thin ocean, compared to SimCity's very deep pond.

Edit

A lot of people have presumed that I am angry at the game, yet I said that I am still enjoying it (mostly due to the transport simulation) and my main complaint was the simplification of the city services.

To those saying I shouldn't disable chirper, a lot of people have done so because it is annoying. Saying that, I found a great mod that shows you all of the data in a little window, can't remember what it's called but it has every single health, crime (ect.) meter on it! It has been so helpful and allowed me to enjoy the game even more.
 
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Greygor69

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Which appears to completely ignore the fact that CSL at launch is, like many Paradox releases, a base upon which to build.

CSL's Ocean will rise and grow over time.

SimCity 2013's pond is destined to stagnate.
 
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DCT1080

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I really appreciate where you are coming from OP, though my main point would be the same as the poster above. Look at what we have got. In a climate of supposed AAA titles being released unfinished, bugged so as to be unplayable and in the case of online games, inaccessible for sometimes weeks due to servers being inadequate, we instead have received a fully operational title with endless hours of playability. How refreshing to be able to download and play a game unhindered from day one. It's sad and wrong that the gaming industry is being driven in such a manner, but hopefully it will get better.

Now, I realise that what I just said makes me sound like a CO fanboy, but CS is the first game from them I have played. I bought it based on the streams people like Quill18 and Etalyx made in the week before release and because it was a non-EA city builder. (I will never buy another EA title after the SC2013 fiasco) Like many people here, I have played SimCity in it's various forms including the benchmark SC4 and the stillbirth SC2013. CS does have a long future ahead of it so long as CO increases the volume of both gameplay and features with a sense of urgency and diligence. The game is not perfect but a good platform to launch from.

So yes, balance changes both small and large, with some significant additions to the game will help to, as you've been putting it so far, "deepen and widen" the pond. Give it time. I would also add, that it is absolutely IMPERATIVE that CO makes adequate changes to the game so that the modders don't have to. Whilst mods and accessibility to mod are great, sometimes they cause more problems than they solve.

CO has a lot of work ahead of them, but I hope it is a task they will enjoy taking on.
 
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Borrego6165

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I really appreciate where you are coming from OP, though my main point would be the same as the poster above. Look at what we have got. In a climate of supposed AAA titles being released unfinished, bugged so as to be unplayable and in the case of online games, inaccessible for sometimes weeks due to servers being inadequate, we instead have received a fully operational title with endless hours of playability. How refreshing to be able to download and play a game unhindered from day one. It's sad and wrong that the gaming industry is being driven in such a manner, but hopefully it will get better.

Now, I realise that what I just said makes me sound like a CO fanboy, but CS is the first game from them I have played. I bought it based on the streams people like Quill18 and Etalyx made in the week before release and because it was a non-EA city builder. (I will never buy another EA title after the SC2013 fiasco) Like many people here, I have played SimCity in it's various forms including the benchmark SC4 and the stillbirth SC2013. CS does have a long future ahead of it so long as CO increases the volume of both gameplay and features with a sense of urgency and diligence. The game is not perfect but a good platform to launch from.

So yes, balance changes both small and large, with some significant additions to the game will help to, as you've been putting it so far, "deepen and widen" the pond. Give it time. I would also add, that it is absolutely IMPERATIVE that CO makes adequate changes to the game so that the modders don't have to. Whilst mods and accessibility to mod are great, sometimes they cause more problems than they solve.

CO has a lot of work ahead of them, but I hope it is a task they will enjoy taking on.

Do remember though that, sticking to the metaphor, although it is easy for modders to stand in the shallow ocean and dig deeper with their own spades, it would take a machine to get to the depth that SimCity was at. I know SC felt shallow, but that was only because Maxis and EA were stubborn and didn't allow the player to reach the glassbox engine, despite them saying that one of the main reasons they developed it would be so that it's moddable (they mentioned it a long time ago). I just think that to deepen the services, you have to redo the way buildings work either with modules or menu-based upgrades. So although it might be possible to allow the player to adjust how many ambulances or how many beds a clinic has with the use of boxes and arrows, it may take the engineers to do that. There also wouldn't be a visual update, such as a change graphically to the buildings.

Another point, going back to the metaphor, is that even if Colossal Order start deepening that ocean, it would be a huge task trying to level or "balance" that ocean's seabed, because it's so wide. As I said with modules, and I will say it again for replacing a lot of statistical information from algorithms with more agents, they would have to rebuild certain parts of the game- if not the engine itself. It would take a big expansion pack for that, not just some little DLC.
 
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Borrego6165

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It really never happened to me to have "large abandoned Areas". How did you do that?

It was mostly when I was busy working on a few junctions or in particular I was working on a new train station in an industrial area, when I lost a large area of a city. It started with a dead body I'm guessing, that dropped land values. Then a couple buildings burned down due to the increased fire risk, and the number of abandoned buildings just grew and grew in this out-ish area of the city.

See in SimCity the buttons would flash amber or red if there was a problem, but in this game it doesn't! And if you disable the chirper, then you've got no way of knowing what's going on unless you physically move the camera around. It's almost like SimCity was designed to handle big cities better than Cities Skylines, because it updated you much better.

hehe, the only place in my city where I have a pet ban is over at my large sports park, since I didn't like people taking their dogs over there and poop on the football fields :)
Haha!
 

Woody Man

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I skipped SimCity 2013 so I can't comment on it. But as for the complaint about having to build new services for each new district, that's something we'd had to do in SimCity 4. I've managed to get away with a pretty low spread of services augmented by a good transport system, unlike SC4 which pretty much just seemed to be radius based.

But as others have said, it's a base, and a nice one at that. I've thoroughly enjoyed playing it, and these days I don't get that often (need to break from MOBAs), as time passes, it'll get bigger.
 

Borrego6165

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I skipped SimCity 2013 so I can't comment on it. But as for the complaint about having to build new services for each new district, that's something we'd had to do in SimCity 4. I've managed to get away with a pretty low spread of services augmented by a good transport system, unlike SC4 which pretty much just seemed to be radius based.

But as others have said, it's a base, and a nice one at that. I've thoroughly enjoyed playing it, and these days I don't get that often (need to break from MOBAs), as time passes, it'll get bigger.

I just got too used to the way SC 2013 handled services. At least in SC4 you could control the budget of each individual buildings, which you can't (seem) to do in CS.
 

Zed68

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I just got too used to the way SC 2013 handled services. At least in SC4 you could control the budget of each individual buildings, which you can't (seem) to do in CS.

Yeah but again it was easy to do in SC4. It was just statistics. It just changed an effect radius and the capacity. Easy to do when those are just numbers.
 
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Quadro

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History
Let's take a quick history lesson. A couple of years back, Colossal Order released Cities in Motion 2. It was deemed too complicated and not very fun, but it still appealed to the hardcore gamers. Moving to 2015, we now have Cities Skylines. For this game, the developers decided to simplify the transport management part of the game in order to make it more accessible. Most importantly, they also did this to make it more fun. Ultimately, they succeeded; we now have a very addictive and still in depth transport simulation.

Agreed

Unfortunately, they got a little carried away with this process. Instead of just simplifying what was overly complicated from the last game, they also decided to simplify the management of your cities from the other SimCity games. The result: imagine playing Transport Tycoon Deluxe, but every so often between placing new rail junctions or adding new bus routes you have to destroy a load of abandoned buildings because you ignored an annoying bird telling you to build a new clinic or fire station.

Ignore Chirpie at your peril, or build the city correctly within the SIM parameters so you don't have to worry about problems.

With mods in Cities Skylines you can make bulldozing automatic, and you can also disable the chirper. However, this creates a new problem: you do not know when these problems will occur, and you'll have to deal with large abandoned areas.

No. Never happened to me in multiple cities. Not even close. If you are dealing with large abandoned areas you are playing the game wrong. Period.

Another issue is this: The district tool with its policies does not have much effect. The transport related policies like "Ban Heavy Traffic" do work well, but non-transport related seem to cancel themselves out. For example, if your citizens are getting upset because garbage is not getting collected, you can enact a pet ban to reduce the garbage production. However, this also reduces happiness, and so the effect is cancelled out! This is the same with many of the policies, where they either cancel themselves out or they make such a small difference that they are not worth it.

It's called trade-offs. Just like in the real world. It is surprising that you seem to be arguing for policies with no negative effects when you think the game overly simplified city management. If that is what you really want, then use the cheats that are out there.

So instead, your goal is to replicate an existing building every time a resident tells you to do so. The problem is that unlike SimCity where services would only get busy during the day, in Cities Skylines due to the nature of the simulation being constant, it means that the rate of use constantly rises. This results in every time you building a new area of the city, you have to build a new landfill, clinic, high school, elementary school, police station, fire station and cemetery. It gets very repetitive, whereas at least in SimCity the modules make this less repetitive. I also noticed that whilst my hospitals had plenty of capacity, there was no way of me adding more ambulances to reach further away houses that weren't getting coverage unless I added a new clinic (and making the overcapacity even higher). I could have increased the budget, but it's a little confusing what the budget does. The budget is also global, so it would be a waste of money for services that don't need it.

And how did you deal with this in SC4? Seems to me that coverage radius was a major factor in that game and the solution was to build more services to cover new areas, which some might think was equally repetitive. One of the differences with CS is that the large map size means you have room to plop those services and yes you can play with the budget as well. If you want to argue for more modularity that is one thing, but at least be honest and admit that SC5 pretty much required that approach due to the small map size.

Overall, Cities Skylines has a very fleshed out transport system but a tedious, and empty city management system. While SimCity has "less", it also has more. CS has reskins of the industrial zones for its specializations that "slightly" affect your city (see the tooltips for the much repeated word "slightly"), as well as broken tourism and quite basic services; whereas, SC has fleshed out every system with the exception of transport! How frustrating for us players!

Ultimately CS is more fun than SC because of the freedom, but when you really think about it CS is like a wide, thin ocean, compared to SimCity's very deep pond.

No, I can't really agree with this. And it's a bit hard to jibe your opening statement that CS is fun and very addictive with your closing opinion that is an empty city management system. I guess some would argue that SC2013's simulation was empty since the SIMS had no persistent homes or jobs.

When I look at CS I see a very solid base game with room for expansion in every aspect both through DLC and modding. Factor in the complex transport and traffic systems, the innovative districts and water, the low launch price + good performance, the broadly based and enthusiastic community of players (appeals to everyone from noobs to hardcore fans who want to design amazing looking cities), and I wouldn't call it a wide, thin ocean, but more a bustling town poised to become a major metropolis.
 
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MaxxPower

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He has one good point:
I also noticed that whilst my hospitals had plenty of capacity, there was no way of me adding more ambulances to reach further away houses that weren't getting coverage unless I added a new clinic (and making the overcapacity even higher). I could have increased the budget, but it's a little confusing what the budget does. The budget is also global, so it would be a waste of money for services that don't need it.

It would be nice to have separate budget sliders for capacity and for transport capacity (ambulances, garbage trucks,...).
And to have them separate for each building and not just global.

Everything else, i disagree with.
 
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BadPeanut

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See in SimCity the buttons would flash amber or red if there was a problem, but in this game it doesn't! And if you disable the chirper, then you've got no way of knowing what's going on unless you physically move the camera around. It's almost like SimCity was designed to handle big cities better than Cities Skylines, because it updated you much better.

Haha then don't disable the interface that updates you on what's happening in the city! I agree that the flashing icon is a quicker/easier to read method of telling you what you are desperate for, but in knowing you don't have something to replace chirpy with then don't disable and complain about it!
 
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slornie

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It would be nice to have separate budget sliders for capacity and for transport capacity (ambulances, garbage trucks,...).
And to have them separate for each building and not just global.
This is definitely something that would improve the game. Being able to increase the number of ambulances or garbage trucks without increasing the service budget (or number of service buildings) would add a great amount of flexibility on it's own (and the same with number of public transport vehicles in a depot/on a line). When you take that next step and allow individual sliders for each structure it's even better.

At the moment you can't really build and maintain separate settlements despite the (relatively) large map size physically allowing/encouraging it. Either you have to connect all of the water/power services together for them to operate efficiently or you have to over-provision globally and in each settlement to make sure everywhere has enough juice.

Another enhancement along similar lines, which I've seen suggested in other threads, would be to allow service buildings to be assigned to particular districts - so your school or hospital or fire station only serves one or two (or three, four..) defined areas rather each building serving everyone and everywhere at once. Of course for this to be effective we'd need the building-specific budget sliders first.
 
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JerkyJerry

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That was me who agreed with the OP.
Come on, he was 0 - 17! I had to give him some luv! ;)
 
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AustinPowersFas

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So all the comparing to Simcity and Cities XL. So its better than those game. Now we are done improving this game?

I dont want to play a game because it is better than any other. I want to play it because i like it and because i see room to improve.