Churchill tank's armour values

[Harold Alexander]

According to the beta game 15th Scottish division have a lot of different types Churchill tanks which have different armament and armour. I am kinda disappointed with that armour values.

So we have next types of tanks:

- Churchill III/IV tank, and CS in support tab with 9 AV.
- AVRE based on modified Churchill III/IV with 20 AV!!!
- Churchill VII command tank with 15 AV.
- Churchill VII based crocodile with 15 AV.

Actually I dont understand why:
- AVRE have that super strong AV, this is probably modified Churchill IV with additional armour but not that much.
In my opinion reasonable and according to armour balance in the game AVRE need to have 10-11 AV more than on base Churchil III/IV but not 20!
- Why crocodile have the same AV like the Command version, that's kinda wrong, because flamethrower siphon make front armour a bit weaker, my opinion is: perfect AV for the crocodile is the 14 points, not more.

- Why the command churchill have only 15 AV? According to the open sources churchill VII front armour was around 6 inches/152 mm of top quality steel, in the same time sherman tank with 50/76 mm with angle have 9/11 AV in the game, and Tiger tank with 100 mm have 13 AV on paradox stream, and Tiger II with 150 mm but with angle is 22 AV, so Command churchill need to use small AV buff to 16-17 points, this will make this tank little more viable in phase B, in current meta Churchill Croc with additional star is slightly better option.

Spoiler

What do you think guys?

 

[mitchverr]

Nice research, I would agree that it is "odd" how the churchill armour doesnt seem to "fit" into the big cats etc around it.

Agree with the AVRE being about that, makes it balanced/useful.
Churchill flamethrower, agree, makes it useful yet balanced for being killed too.

Though i will say again, I feel sad that theres no basic MK VII tanks to take alongside the MK VII command, like you can with panthers etc, till that happens I would like to keep the uparmour of the flamethrower simply to have a "decent heavy churchill" platoon

 

[Max_Damage]

Avre should have 10 armor thats true. For 10 mm you get roughly 1 armor i think?

I also cant understand how did the sherman get 11 av. I think it should be 10. It was something like 60 mm sloped at 50 degrees. It should give 90 or 100 mm LOS thickness ie armor 10 at most. You might be wondering why quarrel over 1 av? Check this and find out why https://www.reddit.com/r/Steel_Division/comments/64suxv/penetration_chance_table_ap_vs_av/
1 av can increase penetration chances 2fold easily.

I cant agree with the Wolverine's 8 armor. It has 30 mm sloped at like 55 degrees which gives 50 mm at most. So instead of 8 it might as well be 5. but due to the fact that the turret was better armored it may as well have 6(but not 8).

Jumbo and King tiger? Inconsistent maybe.
Same sloping on the hull but the KT plate has 1.5 times the thickness of a jumbo. 1.5 times dude. It could only be destroyed by a 122 or a 152 mm shot in the hull.
Now you have to understand that there are two types of KT: P and H depending on the turret. KT P has only 100 mm in the turret and can be destroyed by a 17 pdr with a lucky hit however hull armor stays the same. KT P has a 180 mm turret.

Jumbo's hull is less then 210 mm effectively thats for sure. Maybe it is around 160-170 mm effective.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

The KT variant in this game is the Henschel model, I believe.

 

[steelers708]

The KT variant in this game is the Henschel model, I believe.

You mean the in gameTiger II is the production turret version, there is no such thing as a 'Porsche' or 'Henschel' Tiger II. All Tiger II turrets were designed by Krupp with final assembly by Wegmann, the first 50 were fitted with the 'Initialen-Turm' and all the rest with the 'Serien-Turm'.

 

[Zupadupadude]

You mean the in gameTiger II is the production turret version, there is no such thing as a 'Porsche' or 'Henschel' Tiger II. All Tiger II turrets were designed by Krupp with final assembly by Wegmann, the first 50 were fitted with the 'Initialen-Turm' and all the rest with the 'Serien-Turm'.

Do you think he cares? You know what he meant.

You know this specific thing nobody will really remember or care about (except historians who should care). Great. Have a gold star.

 

[IronHat]

I also cant understand how did the sherman get 11 av. I think it should be 10. It was something like 60 mm sloped at 50 degrees. It should give 90 or 100 mm LOS thickness ie armor 10 at most. You might be wondering why quarrel over 1 av? Check this and find out why https://www.reddit.com/r/Steel_Division/comments/64suxv/penetration_chance_table_ap_vs_av/
1 av can increase penetration chances 2fold easily.

the m4a3 75w have 11 armor to reflect the addition of wet ammo storage? note that all the 11 av sherman are (w) variant and all the dry variant have 9 AV.

(captured firefly is special. German super science give it wet ammo storage and a magical third MG)

 

[Sir A Harris]

See, churchill tanks don't fit the normal tank parameters, the British had Cruiser, Recon and Infantry Support Tanks. Churchills weren't exactly meant to engage in take on tank warfare, they were meant to shield infantry as a sort of moving testudo from MG nests and generally any time of heavy weapon meant to wipe infantry, also heavily used in urban areas..

I do agree, with armour being slightly weak, but for the churchills sides it was very easy to hit and remarkably easy to take out as it had all its ammo stacked there, it was also just a sheet of flat metal, which we all know, wasn't the greatest for protection

 

[Jim_Hatama]

Armor is inconsistent and made up in some areas (for balance reasons I guess). Shermans, churchill, wolverine all have much more than they should . Dont know abt balance but this really cuts immersion

 

[mitchverr]

Armor is inconsistent and made up in some areas (for balance reasons I guess). Shermans, churchill, wolverine all have much more than they should . Dont know abt balance but this really cuts immersion

Other than the AVRE(which has already been said to be getting its armour hit in the balance patching coming soon), which churchill has more than it should?

 

[Jim_Hatama]

Other than the AVRE(which has already been said to be getting its armour hit in the balance patching coming soon), which churchill has more than it should?

I dont research Churchills, just posted cause ppl found that AVRE and wolvereine has too much. Sherman m4a1 have normal value too. But some are clearly overperforming for no reason like 2 point increase on 75 sherman or jumbo.

 

[Harold Alexander]

In comparsion with new divisions units and stats, 15th Scottish division nerf looks too big.

 

[Ulatersk]

- AVRE based on modified Churchill III/IV with 20 AV!!!

Its basically MK III and IV with 20-40 mm applique on mantlet, hull and glacis. So I dont see why it has such values.

 

[IronHat]

I dont research Churchills, just posted cause ppl found that AVRE and wolvereine has too much. Sherman m4a1 have normal value too. But some are clearly overperforming for no reason like 2 point increase on 75 sherman or jumbo.

really, while I agree that the AVRE have too much armor, the regular churchill 6 doesn't have enough. 9 armor is pretty bad for a slow 140 pt tank with only a 75mm.

 

[Sir A Harris]

really, while I agree that the AVRE have too much armor, the regular churchill 6 doesn't have enough. 9 armor is pretty bad for a slow 140 pt tank with only a 75mm.

Again though, what was the purpose of infantry support tanks in the war

 

[Harold Alexander]

In comparsion with new divisions units and stats, 15th Scottish division nerf looks too big.

Update, Scots still very strong, and Challnger on phase B is very strong option. But Crocodile RIP.

 

[IronHat]

Again though, what was the purpose of infantry support tanks in the war

to sacrifice speed for armor so they can better support infantry?

in contrast the cavalry tank sacrifice armor for speed.

the churchill mk6's armor got buffed anyway, even if 10 armor is still pretty mediocre in steel division.

 

[Sir A Harris]

to sacrifice speed for armor so they can better support infantry?

in contrast the cavalry tank sacrifice armor for speed.

the churchill mk6's armor got buffed anyway, even if 10 armor is still pretty mediocre in steel division.

i was being rhetorical

The issue was with churchills however, it wasn't exactly slanted armour, most of it was flat straight angled and thus allowed for maximum penetration power