Christian "border" states and game balance

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First thing first, we all know that Crusader Kings, however badly we want to get our hands on it, is in alpha stages. So the exact game mechanics is beyond the scope of this thread. And yet from what we know, I assume there might be a -potential- game balance issue---and simply wanted to open the topic to discussion.

We know that in CK, we will play a Christian dynasty and not a state. We also know that the conquest (annexation) of fellow christians' territories will be quite limited. Now, wouldn't this premise, again potentially, give an unfair advantage to human players in regions bordering non-Christian states: dynasties in the Iberian peninsula, the Byzantine Empire, perhaps the Baltics as well as the Rus? They will be in a much better position to fight the infidel and earn 'piety' (if it exists such as a game commodity) points?


tuna - EU II betazoid

 

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Hmm....I think I have tried to discuss this subject already..with limited luck..what about competing missionaries in "border" areas for instance..

 

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Originally posted by Wasa
Hmm....I think I have tried to discuss this subject already..with limited luck..what about competing missionaries in "border" areas for instance..

Actually I was rather hinting at the possibility that these border dynasties will be able to annex large tracts of land from non-Christian states---giving them an (unfair?) advantage in wealth, manpower as well as piety over dynasties which are surrounded by other christian states.

Sorry for not being clear enough, any ideas whether this might potentially be an issue of gamebalance?

tuna

 

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Well..Snowball or Paradox is the only one´s who can answer it really..we just have to wait I guess..

 

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The way I see that issue is you can use your $$$ to build cathedrals etc to gain piety or spend it trying to gain non-Christian lands to gain piety. It may be difficult doing both. And who is to say the King of France go on crusade and scarf up some piety points as well as land?

 

[Damocles]

In truth, even if it were so...It wouldn't be too far from being historically accurate. One must just hope that the AI controlled pagan nations can be dangerous enough to make being a border state almost too risky to be worth it.

 

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Ehum..that´s maybe why the mongols aren´t playable?..
They could be that regulator if the human player threats too large portions of "heathen" lands..

 

[Demetrios]

The Seljuks should be large, big, and powerful at the beginning of the game, and thus make it hard for the Byzantines (who should be relatively weak at the start) to expand easily. In the cases of Sicily and Spain, what would be the problem? If these states were to expand against the infidel, it would only be historically accurate. Sonny's idea that it may be just as easy or easier to gain piety by building cathedrals may also balance this potential problem out...

 

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Originally posted by Damocles
In truth, even if it were so...It wouldn't be too far from being historically accurate. One must just hope that the AI controlled pagan nations can be dangerous enough to make being a border state almost too risky to be worth it.

Good points Damocles. But given the fact that reviving the Roman Empire to its full extent is possible for a human Byzantine player in EU2, I can't begin to imagine what one can do with them from 1066 on. I sincerely hope that the Selcuk / Oguz invasions of Asia Minor is simulated accurately in CK to curtail excessive warmongering.

 

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Originally posted by tuna


Good points Damocles. But given the fact that reviving the Roman Empire to its full extent is possible for a human Byzantine player in EU2, I can't begin to imagine what one can do with them from 1066 on. I sincerely hope that the Selcuk / Oguz invasions of Asia Minor is simulated accurately in CK to curtail excessive warmongering.

I agree, it will be nice if conquest is more realistic (i.e. more difficult) than in EU. Not that it should be impossible - we don't want a map so static that the ending looks just like the beginning. And of course we want a better AI and fewer loopholes. I think CK will be able to do a lot in this direction.

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by tuna


Good points Damocles. But given the fact that reviving the Roman Empire to its full extent is possible for a human Byzantine player in EU2, I can't begin to imagine what one can do with them from 1066 on. I sincerely hope that the Selcuk / Oguz invasions of Asia Minor is simulated accurately in CK to curtail excessive warmongering.

Yeah, it will be a bit boring if you can roll over your neighbours with ease. However in Byzantion I would worry more of the potential to get a dagger in your back.

 

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The game is still in early alpha stages, and you're worried about game-balance? I'm certain there will be a lot of game-balance beta-testing, and if this turns up as a problem there will be beta-testers to solve it.

Remember the converse might also be true - that border states are in a disadvantage because their neighbors aren't under any restrictions on attacking.

 

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What if like in MTW the power of the church comes into play, if you expand to far without claims, you get excommunicated, aka outher christans can attack you without penalties, your peasants will revolt, and your nobles/vassels will leave you, unless your very good and your household guards are strong, you lose.

 

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From what's been said so far you CAN'T expand without claims at all...

 

[Idiotboy]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
From what's been said so far you CAN'T expand without claims at all...

But claims could be easily made up if your neighbour is a heathen.

 

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Umm... you guys seem to forget that Muslims and Pagans won't be pushovers in the middle ages. They were as well equiped (if not more so), with stronger fighting spirit (Most weren't conscripts, remember, but professional warriors), and some times better technology. I have a hard time imagining the Byzantines sweeping through Bulgaria or Rum, remember, this is precisely why they needed help from the Franks. They were close to being ground out forever between twin mallets of Turks and Bulgars!

 

[Demetrios]

Originally posted by Celt
Umm... you guys seem to forget that Muslims and Pagans won't be pushovers in the middle ages. They were as well equiped (if not more so), with stronger fighting spirit (Most weren't conscripts, remember, but professional warriors), and some times better technology. I have a hard time imagining the Byzantines sweeping through Bulgaria or Rum, remember, this is precisely why they needed help from the Franks. They were close to being ground out forever between twin mallets of Turks and Bulgars!

Bulgaria? In 1066 Bulgaria was neither Muslim, nor pagan, nor even independent. It was just a theme of the Byzantine Empire, and would be until 1185 or so...

 

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Originally posted by Celt
Umm... you guys seem to forget that Muslims and Pagans won't be pushovers in the middle ages. They were as well equiped (if not more so), with stronger fighting spirit (Most weren't conscripts, remember, but professional warriors), and some times better technology. I have a hard time imagining the Byzantines sweeping through Bulgaria or Rum, remember, this is precisely why they needed help from the Franks. They were close to being ground out forever between twin mallets of Turks and Bulgars!

With the exception of what Demetrios said about the Bulgarians, that's very true. It might actually be MORE hazardous to be a border state, not less.

 

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Originally posted by BarristerBoy


With the exception of what Demetrios said about the Bulgarians, that's very true. It might actually be MORE hazardous to be a border state, not less.

Especially when the Mongol hordes come out of PTI and go romping across the map!

 

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I can't wait to see how that's done. The Mongols can't be treated just like a regular country, since 90%+ of their territory is outside the map...