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Mork

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Sgt_HunteR said:
Its like this... the newbie with 1 post says...
I have an idea on a new tech, Improved Gliders...
then the pros with 1000 posts come, nah get outa here it will never work.
and then after the newbie gives up, they steal his idea and get all the thanx from paradox :cool:

Oh yes, and when mathguy first posted his calculations, he was IIRC still a n00b, that is why they didn't use his caculations.
Most of the "old folks" around here are very articulate and research their topics a lot. That is why they are the "old folks", that is why they lasted for so long.

Wether you like it or not, your chopper division idea is not realistic. But that shouldn't stop you from making the suggestion. And when it's not used, you can make a mod (or just change your own game) to fit those wants.

Though this has been argued to death, in the same manner that one could argue over the feasibility of a time machine or the existance of an all-powerfull god (the last is impossible to deny/prove). So I suggest that we stop now, and just for the heck of it, could some "old folk" mod lock this thread?


Edit: I forgot to add "IIRC"
 

unmerged(6777)

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Since I was asked by a member to review this thread, I have now done so. I can't even begin to comment on how generally disappointed I am by the posting behaviour of a number of people...

So let me give you a little perspective from a mod's point of view:

1. Regardless of whether someone is a newbie or not, every member at least should have the courtesy to treat an idea or suggestion with at least a degree of decorum. If you think an idea is ludicrous then refute it using reasonable verbiage and cogent arguments. Don't stoop to ad hominem attacks or utter tripe.

2. If someone can present a series of cogent points to refute a suggestion then either respond to them with your own cogent points or concede the argument. Do not selectively refute (since that lacks cogency) or ignore them.

3. If anyone outside the development and beta teams had the faintest idea of how much thought, research and discussion went into even more apparently (on their face) rediculous ideas then I think you'd be staggered. Anyone outside the development and beta team might be well advised to bear this in mind (particularly if they have hopes of one day being part of the aforementioned groups) when commenting.

4. Sgt_HunteR: you are utterly wrong about the degree of attention that Paradox pays to any member who presents a rational idea in a clear, well thought-out and consise manner. As far as they (and we as moderators and betatesters) are concerned, there is no real difference betwen a newbie's idea and an idea that one of us comes up with. If it's a good idea then it will be looked at very closely, and if it's a bad idea it will be treated as such. It's not eh person who has an idea that is at issue, it's the idea itself.

If you feel that newbies have no voice here then I can only conclude that you are unaware of the countless instances that I could cite to refute this proposition. PM me if youd like a list of hundreds. So perhaps before making any further sweeping condemnations of the company you could take the time to determine whether they are accurate.

:mad:

As to the idea of including a broader range of helicopter techs in HoI2, possibly allowing a helicopter division or brigade, and the advantages they would give to a force, I believe that intersperced with all the other shit (yes, SHIT) in this thread there are enough useful bits of information for me to collect and report back to the development team. I can assure you - and give you my personal guarantee - that the subject will get all due consideration.

I will also guarantee that any further repetition of the crap I've just read will earn some people some time off from the forums to reflect on their posting habits.

I trust that I have made myself perfectly clear. If not, PM me.

MrT
 

Slargos

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Well spoken, Mrt. And in red aswell. Well spoken.

I think the current 'copter tech is quite enuoigh.

Sapuuura: "Whoa. Not mr T! Mr T is BOOMshackalack.!"
 
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unmerged(6777)

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Slargos said:
Well spoken, Mrt. And in red aswell. Well spoken.
Well, at times "mod-speak" is necessary. :(

I think the current 'copter tech is quite enuoigh.
Frankly, I'm inclined to agree with you. There are quite a few arguments that would tend to make it somewhat unreasonable to take the tech tree much further in this direction. Most of these (regarding the physics hurdle of generating the sheer horsepower, the massive metalurgical issues, etc.) have already been made by other posters. Theoretically, however, I supose that it's probably that an nation with vast resources could choose to focus exclusively on the prerequisite groups of technologies and achieve a degree of advance that might perhaps be on par with the late Korean war Bell models or early Vietnam war Huey.

Anyone interested in reading a (lengthy) treatise on the subject should see this site which is an historical outline of the USA marine corps' essential strategy and development objectives in the development of helicopters for the Korean war. Another site that gives fairly good general details of the entire history of helicopter warefare can be found here.

What would worry me most is that even achieving 2002 helicopter capabilities would not make a division - or more likely a brigade attachment - a realistic objective for a player of the game. I can't imagine forgoing the majority of advanced fighter, bomber, industrial, doctinal and nuclear technologies to dogedly pursue this in light of the fact that most equipment developed in the WW2 era and used in vast scale combat would blow even the most modern helicopters out of the sky. As an attack force I would suggest that this is unlikely to ever be feasible (other than close-in delivery of foot troops) in real life. Helicopters would not play a prominent combat role in modern warefare and would be more of a ligistics and supply tool.

Helicopters as a means of limited transport, supply delivery, medivac, etc. are a more feasible goal, however the majority of these concepts are largely abstracted in HoI1 and one might presume HoI2 is unlikely to want to iintroduce additional layers of micromangement to the player unless there is a significant reward. I don't (personally) see that reward, but could at least make a case for it if necessary. Assembling and coding the dozens of necessary tech steps to include hypothetical helicopter tachnologies would be counter-productive of Paradox development personnel time allocations, particularly considering that the facility exists for users to code this into a mod themselves if they feel strongly about it. I would prefer to treat the concept of such (relatively primitive) craft as being abstractly intrinsic to advanced infantry units (perhaps in HQ-related, logistic, or observational tech paths?) and avoid expanding the tech tree in all sorts of complex and unnecessary ways. If expansions are to be made, they should have more direct tangeable benefits to the player.

That's my take on it. Feel free to refute me.
 

Zwiback

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After reading a bit more about German helicopters in WW2 I must say that they have their place in Techtree advances granding bonuses to the units, but there is noway that a whole division could be transported with these things. Even nowadays there a very very few fully Airmobile Divisions even they can be build. This has many reasons, one of them is that it is impossible to fly arond behind enemy lines and take all their provinces with just a battalion or brigade. If you land in the desert with 300 men- who would care?
 
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unmerged(23946)

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You know if the betatesters want to include chopper divisions and brigades then so be it. But I also want suicide dog battalions and divisions for Russia too. They were much more numerous and played a more important role then choppers and whenever the History Channel makes a program about Stalingrad they never fail to mention Russian dogs with explosives attached to them while forgetting to tell their viewers what kind of tanks/planes were used or numbers of troops involved.
 
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Lord Warchaser said:
You know if the betatesters want to include chopper divisions and brigades then so be it. But I also want suicide dog battalions and divisions for Russia too. They were much more numerous and played a more important role then choppers and whenever the History Channel makes a program about Stalingrad they never fail to mention Russian dogs with explosives attached to them while forgetting to tell their viewers what kind of tanks/planes were used or numbers of troops involved.
I thougt the russians stopped using suicide dogs.. Since they were attacking the russians tanks too...
 
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MrT said:
to the idea of including a broader range of helicopter techs in HoI2, possibly allowing a helicopter division or brigade, and the advantages they would give to a force.

I have changed my mind about helicopter divisions long time ago... I just didnt think it trough when i started this thread, wich will never happen again.
But another suggestion came up and thats to expand the Helicopter tech...
So maby i should change the Thread name to that!
 

Mork

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Sgt_HunteR said:
I have changed my mind about helicopter divisions long time ago... I just didnt think it trough when i started this thread, wich will never happen again.
But another suggestion came up and thats to expand the Helicopter tech...
So maby i should change the Thread name to that!


:)

Way to go!

You admitted a mistake, and that is more than most people can...

SO, when you get of your ban, what kinds of tech enhancements do you suggest? (other than those that are in HOI)

Mine would be rescue chopsticks like those in Korea. A smal bonus on ORG would IMHO be prober.
 

unmerged(6777)

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From the first of the two sites I cited above (a US military paper) I would think that looking at early Korean war capabilities and porting them to the game would represent the apex of possible tech.

General Craig said:
Marine Helicopters have proven invaluable. . .They have been used for every conceivable type of mission. The Brigade utilized them for liaison, reconnaissance, evacuation of wounded, rescue of Marine flyers downed in enemy territory, observation, messenger service, guard mail at sea, posting and supplying of outguards on dominating terrain features and resupplying of small units by air.
General Joseph L. Stewart said:
...I was the G-3 of the brigade in Korea that employed the first helicopters in combat. . .It was really dramatic to observe those who hadn't seen a helicopter operate before, to see the reactions and expressions of those who saw for the first time how the helicopter could be of such great assistance to us in planning these fast moving, put-out-the-fire type of operations.
Major Gottschalk said:
...perhaps the most important use of the helicopter
in the early months of the Korean War concerned command and control. The flexibility provided the Brigade Commander to control his forces, change direction of movement, give personal instructions to subordinate commanders, and observe the resultant battlefield movement in a dynamic fast moving situation provided a new dimension to
tactical control of the battlefield in a difficult terrain setting.
 

unmerged(21640)

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AlexanderG said:
Uh.
Even today there is no such thing as a choper division.
The biggest unit would be a regiment or a brigade.
And thats in this day and age where there is such a thing as an attack chopper.
That's because the US redesignated the 1st Cavalry Division (Airborne) as armored. The 1st Cav fought in Vietnam exclusively as heliborne-units transported by CH-47s and UH-1A/Bs. They were an outgrowth of the 11th Airborne tests conducted in early 1960's (1962?) and developed especially for Vietnam.
 
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unmerged(19835)

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The simple idea of having attack helicopter DIVISIONS is just plain ridiculous.
Helicopters didn't become potent offensive weapons until Vietnam, and considering that the first helicopter was created during WW II, that means it took roughly 25-30 years for it to be developed to that point. Now you want to go from prototypes to Bell-Hueys...in about 6 years?

Some people have said "OMG WELL WTF THE GERMANS DIDNT OCCUPY MOSCOW IRL SO HOW CUM THEY CAN DO IT IN HOI!!!!1?!!1". The outcome of a war is nowhere near the same to the appearent superhuman ability of scientists to more than triple the research and development of helicopters. And mind you, not just individual helicopters. Helicopter divisions! Or squadrons, since they'll probably be air units. Using that train of thought we should have F-16s and EuroFighters in HOI 2 as well. Or M1 Abrams or Leopard IIs or Bradley Fighting Vehicles and Nimitz Class carriers! And plasma rifles! Hell, let's form the Mobile Infantry, send the Roger Young into space and drop some MI on Tokyo! Or we can be realistic about the TECHNOLOGICAL limits of time period HOI2 will cover. Yes, there should be more advanced technology AVAILABLE but attack helicopters? I think not. If we do that we should have the possibility of The Race landing on Earth, like in Harry Turtledove's World War series. Attack helicopters are a bad idea. Now, having a helicopter attachment for recon purposes would be OK, since I suppose those could've been developed within the time period if made a priority, but attack helicopters make about as much sense as...well, they make no sense at all.
 

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FurorTeutonicus said:
...And plasma rifles! Hell, let's form the Mobile Infantry, send the Roger Young into space and drop some MI on Tokyo!

:D
In the timeframe of HOI2 Rodger Young would probably have been one of the MIs himself ...


OnTopic: There has to be a technological limitation somewhere, and we only have history as a vague guideline to point to the what-ifs ...
I humbly suggest that we take what was available by the end of the Korean War and use that as the most modern technologies...
 

Oscu

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Disgustoid said:
...
I humbly suggest that we take what was available by the end of the Korean War and use that as the most modern technologies...


I don't know if it's possible to add "empty tech slots" to the end of the tree (for those mod fanatics), with customisable requirements?

Probably would be of use for no more than few scores of people :)
 

Zorgoth

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Disgustoid said:
OnTopic: There has to be a technological limitation somewhere, and we only have history as a vague guideline to point to the what-ifs ...
I humbly suggest that we take what was available by the end of the Korean War and use that as the most modern technologies...

I think this is right on. Minor quibbles aside, if it did not exist at the end of the Korea war, then it ought not to be considered in the HOI2 timeframe. Given the the US/UK/USSR were in full military R&D during most of the 1936-1951 timeframe, it is entirely reasonable to use this as the limits.
 

Zorgoth

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Unless of course Pardox was concidering a Korea/cold war expansion to HOI2...

pleeeeeeeeease ;)