This is the essential properties about choppers in HoI2, IMHO. We can forget anything more advanced than this configuration.SilverDragon 72 said:
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SilverDragon 72 said:
No.
Didn't you read the post about the turboshaft engine?
They simply didn't have the engine power for it. The troop transport helicopter requires alloys that didn't exist during the period.
Slargos said:
I'm no avionic engineer - so I don't really know what you would really need for it...
...it's more the question could it be possible with early concentrated research on helis...
...and whatever this strange thing on the photo is...-...I'm sure you could mount an MG on it...
...if this would make any military sense is a completely other issue!
...btw. CVNs (mid sixties) shouldn't be in...
...and Cruisers with anti-ship missiles also...
...and I'm not sure about AA-missiles - think the first ones who had at least a medium to hit chance came also up in the early sixties...
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And here is where I disagree. The diverse tech tree of HOI 1 was its best feature, and I hope the streamlining of it I keep hearing about doesn't mean making it smaller than the original, because that would be a huge step back IMO. I think a person who goes full bore into research should be rewarded with stuff that in our timeline didn't come out into the 50s and even up to mid 60s. And just like in reality, the obvious downside for the heavy tech'er should be the fact that their resources are not going into mass production of lower tech war material. Expanding the tech tree without getting insane(like I agree whole attack chopper divisions are) should be the goal.Mork said:
At the very least things in the first HOI(CVNs, SSNs, SSBNs(though this never did get fixed in hoi 1 iirc), BBNs, etc) should stay in. Again, shrinking the tech tree would be a big step back.
I'm not defending Sgt_HunteR's actions, but I agree with his general idea to add to what worked in HOI 1 by in general by giving researchers more choices.
PriestOfDiscord said:
I'm not trying to say that the research shouldn't be expanded (though that was pretty much what I wrote
), I'm trying to say that it shouldn't be expanded in age (if that makes any sense at all). I have no problem with it being expanded with i.e. the different kinds of surpension likle in CORE.I will get back to this later, I have to take care of my job now
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IIRC one of this beuracratic issues with the helicopter was the fact that the US airforce had just been created after the war and the chopper was definitely and Army kind of thing. I believe that quite some time of U.S. chopper development was lost to this. Mind you Apaches are totally unrealistic in the game period. But I do not see what Korea era choppers could not have served as crude weapon platforms. How effective they would have been is another issue. I would rather see choppers appear in various tech besides C&C. If front line medical stations have such an effect, why not proper M.A.S.H. units? But definately NO speed bonus!
Can I just say something... (Well it can`t possibly take the level of this thread any lower, can it?)
The Apache helicopter has an engine of 1696.39 horsepowers (1265KW).
The FA-61 had 160 Horsepower.
One of the heaviest tanks in WWII, King Tiger had an engine capable of doing 700hp...
Chew on that for a while...
And that is not even mentioning armanent, aerodynamics, propellor desings...
Also to quite tell the truth I see no use for a possible slow and cumbersome Machinegun-armed helicopter in WWII... One man with a rifle would enough to put it down. (Remember that it took years of developement to get those helicopters higher than 100 feet, and even more years to fit in those armor platings as well...)
Now in Vietnam VCs did not have an organized Anti Aircraft defense, mainly due to their Guerilla style of fighting. Yet even during those days, with Helicopters being arguably the most efficient weapon that USA had to offer, The Vietnamese dropped them, with hand guns and bazookas. Now think of that, with a chopter of no real armor, speed, manouverability or chance to fight back and an enemy with organized anti-aircrafting, spotters, panzerfausts and machine guns...
Maybe for ambulance duties or as airlifts, maybe even to go in for supplies, but at what cost? Air defense = 0 ? One man with a rifle and a keen eye could take down a dozen of those... Not to mention a whole company, with Anti-air guns, machine guns, panzerfaust...
Granted WWI aeroplanes weren`t that much of a "tanks of the air" either... But bear in mind that hose days there was no AA-fire, rifles and machine guns were ten times worse and no one cared enough to spot the planes.... But a steady 50km per hour moving target 20 feet above the ground, with no armor, filled with fuel and supplies... Yeah, that`s just what we need... :wacko:
The Apache helicopter has an engine of 1696.39 horsepowers (1265KW).
The FA-61 had 160 Horsepower.
One of the heaviest tanks in WWII, King Tiger had an engine capable of doing 700hp...
Chew on that for a while...
And that is not even mentioning armanent, aerodynamics, propellor desings...
Also to quite tell the truth I see no use for a possible slow and cumbersome Machinegun-armed helicopter in WWII... One man with a rifle would enough to put it down. (Remember that it took years of developement to get those helicopters higher than 100 feet, and even more years to fit in those armor platings as well...)
Now in Vietnam VCs did not have an organized Anti Aircraft defense, mainly due to their Guerilla style of fighting. Yet even during those days, with Helicopters being arguably the most efficient weapon that USA had to offer, The Vietnamese dropped them, with hand guns and bazookas. Now think of that, with a chopter of no real armor, speed, manouverability or chance to fight back and an enemy with organized anti-aircrafting, spotters, panzerfausts and machine guns...
Maybe for ambulance duties or as airlifts, maybe even to go in for supplies, but at what cost? Air defense = 0 ? One man with a rifle and a keen eye could take down a dozen of those... Not to mention a whole company, with Anti-air guns, machine guns, panzerfaust...
Granted WWI aeroplanes weren`t that much of a "tanks of the air" either... But bear in mind that hose days there was no AA-fire, rifles and machine guns were ten times worse and no one cared enough to spot the planes.... But a steady 50km per hour moving target 20 feet above the ground, with no armor, filled with fuel and supplies... Yeah, that`s just what we need... :wacko:
The problem with tech in HOI is that it has to have a limit. For example, it is quite easy to get through all the Industry tech in the game, at least as a major idustrialized country, so one would assume that there should be more, but there isn't because that would require a near infinite tech tree. Same for helicopters, they are there and THEORITICALLY speaking one could completely waste their economy to create units of not so effective, but expensive machines and than proceed to lose the war to, oh lets say Czechoslovakia.
Helicopters, many years after 1949, were still used in minor support roles. Helicopters were used for ambulances, recon., and possibly for supply, not combat. That fact is reflected in HOI 1, or at least in the CORE version anyway. Helicopter tech adds some more statistics to infantry, as it did in real life. Adding ground defence, maybe even a point or half of speed, but that is it, as reality dictates.
In conclusion, while possible to add a MG to a recon. or ambulance chopper it is tactically and strategically ineffective, much like creating divisions of motorcycles armed with MGs that are about as effective as Cavalry, but more expensive.
Helicopters, many years after 1949, were still used in minor support roles. Helicopters were used for ambulances, recon., and possibly for supply, not combat. That fact is reflected in HOI 1, or at least in the CORE version anyway. Helicopter tech adds some more statistics to infantry, as it did in real life. Adding ground defence, maybe even a point or half of speed, but that is it, as reality dictates.
In conclusion, while possible to add a MG to a recon. or ambulance chopper it is tactically and strategically ineffective, much like creating divisions of motorcycles armed with MGs that are about as effective as Cavalry, but more expensive.
Exactly...
Yes Helicopters existed in the military in 1940's
Yes they could be used for recon, transport of 1 or 2 people.. I.e. battle commander.
However they were very small, underpowered, unarmored, slow, and short range. and unable to carry any significant weapons load which basicly renders strategicly and tacticly irrelevant. therefore why bother assigning game resources to something that would be prohibitavly expensive, has no defensive capability and yet have no significant impact on the outcome of a battle.
Fact Helicopters were too underpowered untill the development of the Turboshaft engine, Fact Turboshaft engines were a derivative of jet engnine technology still in it's infancy in 1945. and needed high tempurature alloys unavialable till the mid 50's.
therefore it is unreasonable to assume that a practical and effective Helicopter could have been developed at least till 1955. even taking into account an accellerated reasearch program.
Result... practical Helicopters don't belong in a WW2 scenario whos timeline ends in 1948.
Yes Helicopters existed in the military in 1940's
Yes they could be used for recon, transport of 1 or 2 people.. I.e. battle commander.
However they were very small, underpowered, unarmored, slow, and short range. and unable to carry any significant weapons load which basicly renders strategicly and tacticly irrelevant. therefore why bother assigning game resources to something that would be prohibitavly expensive, has no defensive capability and yet have no significant impact on the outcome of a battle.
Fact Helicopters were too underpowered untill the development of the Turboshaft engine, Fact Turboshaft engines were a derivative of jet engnine technology still in it's infancy in 1945. and needed high tempurature alloys unavialable till the mid 50's.
therefore it is unreasonable to assume that a practical and effective Helicopter could have been developed at least till 1955. even taking into account an accellerated reasearch program.
Result... practical Helicopters don't belong in a WW2 scenario whos timeline ends in 1948.
Also, Note that in HOI CORE, the helicopters are all the way at the end of the airplane tech list, and that, unlike the idustry or tank list, is one long, long list, maybe we are not really meant to get to it in the early part of the game, just like I should not be in Berlin in 1939 with T-54's and Sputnik hovering above.
Germany tested double prop helicopters during 1936 (first helicopter ever was flown by a woman). During the late years of the war, Germany was using helicopters of small size and very modest speed to pick up downed Luftwaffe pilots. Late war U-Boats were given very small gyrocopters to greatly increase their sight range, though it was extremely hazardous. By the time Germany fell, the American and Russian armies found all sorts of amazing flying machinesin Germany. This including prop driven rockets, VTOL experiemental aircraft, designs for ICBMS, and designs for a helicopter of modest size to be armed with a single rocket to be used to harass enemy troops. It was just on paper but was ready for construction.
However, its a long way from paper to a fully functional, organized, properly trained and reliably group of recon copters, let alone combat units.
However, its a long way from paper to a fully functional, organized, properly trained and reliably group of recon copters, let alone combat units.
Yeah, Germany sure was a great, great nation, with all of is wonders one starts tp think, <<How in the Nine hells did they Lose the war against silly, backwards SU?>>, but that's OT and meant as a joke anyway.
Anyway, it seems that since the Copters played no real role they should still be represented through minor Stat. additions, kind of Like Heavy Tanks (in CORE).
In conclusion: I think that we can all agree that Combat choppers or Brigade additions to actual divisions should not be undertaken.
meant as a joke anyway.Anyway, it seems that since the Copters played no real role they should still be represented through minor Stat. additions, kind of Like Heavy Tanks (in CORE).
In conclusion: I think that we can all agree that Combat choppers or Brigade additions to actual divisions should not be undertaken.
Asudulayev said:Yeah, Germany sure was a great, great nation, with all of is wonders one starts tp think, <<How in the Nine hells did they Lose the war against silly, backwards SU?>>, but that's OT and
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couldn't resist...
Easy... Logistics and supply... basicly the SU while lower-teched and encumbered by the inefficiencies of the communist system. still had a far more massive manufacturing capacity, larger manpower-pool to draw from and easy access to raw materials.
yea SU lost alot more men and mateials but they had a hell of alot more too loose!
what is it that SunTzu advocated?? that battles are already won even before the armies take the field?? well there was NO way Germany could develop the manufaturing capacity and manpower availability that the Soviets could.. Hitler lost the war the instant Barbarossa was launched. the only way he could have won was to keep Russia and the US neutral.
True and where was the great German enginuity when deciding to attack Russia , but OT here. Also if memmory serves, Germany lost 18 Million, not 21 Million, but still quite a bit, also, in Tanks the Germans were always behind, but since I do not want to be kicked out, no more on this from me.
, but OT here. Also if memmory serves, Germany lost 18 Million, not 21 Million, but still quite a bit, also, in Tanks the Germans were always behind, but since I do not want to be kicked out, no more on this from me.
Hmmm.. the last time I checked Germany was also in war with plenty of other major powers, which is makes the task a bit harder then battling the SU alone. And the tons of trucks, avitation gas, electronic equipment, planes ect. which where delivered per lend lease shall also not be forgotten.
My personal opinion is that Germany vs. SU would have developed in a bloody stalemate after Ger took Moscow.
My personal opinion is that Germany vs. SU would have developed in a bloody stalemate after Ger took Moscow.
Raideur said:
Someone beat me to the punch on this. See http://www.nasm.si.edu/research/aero/aircraft/focke_achgelis.htm
Something else for the HOI 2 tech tree, right? U-boat helicopters. Oh, and ornithopters.
Zwiback said:
Yes after Germany TOOK MOSCOW, since they did not, that makes one wonder, secondly, Germany was at war with alot of World Powers, considering the proportional amount of Troops in Russia to Africa and France in 1941-1944, one would assume that German was ONLY at war with SU. All of the Logistics winter Problems should have been considered greatly by the German High Command, apparently they were not, that was the German High Command's fault and no one else's.
P.S. I meant absolutely no disrespect to anyone of German descent and to any other fans of the Wermacht, all I said was that WWII Germany was not the greatest thing since sliced bread, if I offended anyone at all I truly am sorry. Finally, this is all off topic and I apologize for even starting this.
Uhmmm, you must have misunderstood me- I wasnt offended by this. Its just that many countries can claim that they defeated Germany and I think it is quite intersting what have happened when a) Germany didnt invaded the USSR or b) a one on one between USSR - GER.
So, no offence taken
. And while one of the best armies around the Germany Army had their problematic parts too.Edit: I am really sorry if did hijack this thread
idealist said:
Going by recent events I have to concur.
After fifty years of unhindered development, a US helicopter brigade met for the first time a unit with standard WWII levels of flak. An Iraqi Republican Guard Unit's light flak guns stopped a brigade of Apaches in their tracks and forced it to return to base, full of holes...Iraq 2003. Do you really think the outcome would be any different sixty years earlier?
The main difference would be that the helicopters would never return to base! Ever!
The whole concept of early tech attack helicopters going anywhere near a WWII division with intention to harm it is ludicrous...unless of course it was an Ethiopan division, or maybe a Milita division...