Chinese Tech Group

[Red_warning]

It's exactly how it was in EUIII and you are shocked? Truly?

 

[Sun_Wu]

Actually the penalty is less than in EU3...

Here you need 800 MP instead of 500 for a tech level (500*1.6).

Whit the old EU3 system (40% research speed) you would have needed 500/0.4 = 1250 MP instead of 500.

Overall everyone has benefited of that, and since Ideas are now much more important even low tech-level countries can still be a minimum (not to much) competitive if well-played. (Well not new-world natives).

It's actually worse because Monarch points accrue much slower and are split more ways, for example in 1492 China starts at 0 stability, they have to spend well over a year of admin monarch points (with a level 3 advisor it is 15 months and that burns almost their entire surplus) apiece to raise those, god help them if they get a stability hit before they boost it to 1 as that triggers losing the Mandate of Heaven.

When they fixed their stability situation and expended that 270+ points they can start teching, guess what, the first tech is 1000 because of getting +110% cost (worse than Sub-Saharan Africa's +100%), luckily neighbor bonuses give a -10% bringing it all the way down to a +100%. That means that if you get neither stability hit or admin points from event (the stability hits will cost more than you get from event) and manage to have a L3 person for Admin you get L4 ADM in November 1505 at the earliest.

China was not as advanced as many people think. They claimed to be the centre of The World which implied to think that culture and heritage of every other people were barbaric. This arrogance made China unable to modernize. Chinese were perfect in many fields but when Jesuits arrived there, they noticed that Chinese had known almost nothing about mathematics, astronomy, optics and shipbuilding (both are destroyed knowledge of Zhang He). These sciences were vital for growing modern powers.

The fail is strong in this one.

The Chinese navy wasn't really in that bad shape when the Portuguese came, indeed the Battles of Tamao were lopsided wins for China. On the Second Battle of Tamao the Chinese used cannons and firearms to destroy the Portuguese. Despite the fact that their cannons beat the Portuguese the Chinese reverse engineered them and understanding they were better immediately started manufacturing and using these cannons. Beating the Portuguese in two naval battles at a time when the Portuguese were the best shipbuilders in Europe hardly shows lack of knowledge of shipbuilding. The bookkeeping and finance during the Ming really doesn't show a lack of knowledge in mathematics. Regarding mathematics yes being able to calculate every eclipse is obviously far superior to than being able to run a vast empire 3/5 the size of Europe in term of things "...vital for growing modern powers".

I agree that the loss of Zheng He's ships set them way back in naval tradition, but in 1521 China was still able to defeat Europeans in its own waters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Tamao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Tamao_(1522)

They definitely weren't technologically advanced, however they were no where near the backwards state that most claim them to be.
That was around mid 1700s.

Also the increased tech cost is 60% compared to European tech, not 160%, but there's a lot of other limitations on them that I don't agree with.

Anyways the tech penalty is fine. Manchu only gets +50% due to neighbor bonus.

Historically, Ming dynasty should have been facing revolts and a strong Manchu invasion but I don't think PI knows how to emulate that.
Ming took the budget that went into their ships and threw it at the Great Wall, which was ultimately ineffective.
There's no equivalent to that in the actual game so idk.
If mods could simulate the actual condition of late Ming then the tech shouldn't even be a problem.
It's not like irl someone told the Chinese they should have a +60% tech penalty because they're Chinese.
There was a reason why Ming dynasty fell in the end.

An idiot general let the Manchu in

China had a problem with innovation. In the west innovation is almost a norm. By innovation I don't just mean tech advancement. I mean using technology that is know already in new ways. Take gunpowder China has this for centuries before the world, so while the Chinese use gunpowder in rockets and grenades the failed to innovate and make cannons a standard weapon yet they had the technology to do so. Europeans seeing the Turks use cannon quickly adopted this technology, seeing how gunpowder make a cannon lethal to a castle they very quickly innovated this idea and made a miniature cannon that was lethal to a soldier.

China believed its culture had reached a level of perfection. This attitude does in fact stagnate innovation. So while no one "told the Chinese you get +60% tech penalty because you are Chinese," its true, but the Chinese told themselves that we are culturally perfect and thus have no need to improve. It is this very real aspect of their culture that stagnated themselves.

You examples of the troubles china had don't actually explain away their lack of innovation what they do in fact explain is why they rarely extended beyond their current borders. These conflicts would normally spur on innovation as you look for solutions to these problems but that doesn't happen in China simply because they felt they had reach a cultural zenith.

Look at China today they no longer think they have nothing new to learn. Their own domestic problems with pollution and environmental impact is causing them to be world innovators in green technologies. So I think there are some very valid reasons why China gets hobbled in EU4.

Um artillery were extensively used by China, the difference is they were anti-personnel because they only fought nomads who don't build walls you have to tear down. China also used firearms extensively.

Um China today recognizes the pollution issue is is massively rolling out renewable energy generation systems.

 

[unmerged(671782)]

The Chinese copied Portuguese guns and they didn't need to Westernize or have a Western nation beside them. Real life =/= EU4.

http://historum.com/asian-history/5...ortuguese-naval-battle-tamao-1521-1522-a.html

The whole Westernization mechanic is there because of lazy design. It should be based on trade infrastructure, not arbitrary requirements like "must have Western Nation beside you."

 

[1alexey]

Just saying:




Although the - 1 points is not the end of the world, since China can afford 3 level 2 advisors, when a lot of Europeans can barely afford a full set of level 1 advisors.

 

[Sakura]

Thats interesting, thanks. However, the ashikaga shogunate fell apart after the onin war, if ashikaga shogunat had won that war, it wont have. The war was 1467, so after the start date 1444....

The Ashikaga did win the Onin War (as much as anyone did).

By 1444, the Ashikaga were pretty much screwed. Their last strong shogun, Ashikaga Yoshinori, has just been assassinated in 1441 and there's an 8 year old on the throne, the not at all impressive Yoshimasa.

Really, if anything JAP starts off stronger than it should.

 

[Sun_Wu]

I agree that the loss of Zheng He's ships set them way back in naval tradition, but in 1521 China was still able to defeat Europeans in its own waters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Battle_of_Tamao
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Tamao_(1522)

They definitely weren't technologically advanced, however they were no where near the backwards state that most claim them to be.
That was around mid 1700s.

Also the increased tech cost is 60% compared to European tech, not 160%, but there's a lot of other limitations on them that I don't agree with.

Anyways the tech penalty is fine. Manchu only gets +50% due to neighbor bonus.

Historically, Ming dynasty should have been facing revolts and a strong Manchu invasion but I don't think PI knows how to emulate that.
Ming took the budget that went into their ships and threw it at the Great Wall, which was ultimately ineffective.
There's no equivalent to that in the actual game so idk.
If mods could simulate the actual condition of late Ming then the tech shouldn't even be a problem.
It's not like irl someone told the Chinese they should have a +60% tech penalty because they're Chinese.
There was a reason why Ming dynasty fell in the end.

Civil War+invaders

Just saying:




Although the - 1 points is not the end of the world, since China can afford 3 level 2 advisors, when a lot of Europeans can barely afford a full set of level 1 advisors.

The minus -1 isn't the end of the world, but that means that the L2 advisors are equivalent to European L1 advisors despite being 4x as much not counting the fact that they pay double for Technology which means that a 6ADM monarch & L3 advisor (6+3+3Base-1=11/2=5.5) is weaker than a 3ADM European Monarch (3+3Base) when it comes to technology. Combine this with the fact the Western Europeans start with several levels ahead in technology and China is far behind much more rapidly compared to real life.

 

[Solmyr2000]

the fact that they pay double for Technology

I'll just point out that eunuch faction gives a 75% technology discount. That means only 35% extra cost, which isn't really that much.

 

[Elusivehonor]

Ideally, I'd have liked the Chinese (should be renamed to East Asian, or NorthEast Asian, to be honest) Tech group to start out better than Europe in 1444, and quickly fall behind Europe.

Also, Japan should absolutely have its own tech group (and no, not just for the OMGNINJASAMURAI!1). Maybe I'll make a mod for this after release.

I would totally support these changes, especially adding a new tech group for Japan. However, I think people should wait for the games release before complaining too hard about balance. Some things are merited, but I think some people are losing sight of the fact that 20 years of gameplay and peering over txt files isn't enough to truly get a feel for the balance of the game.

 

[mudcrabmerchant]

I don't know how troops scale in EU4 as compared to EU3, but in EU3, if you set China's tech group to 70-80% speed, it prevented the ridiculous curb-stomps by 5k Latin infantry in the 1500s, but led to China being in serious trouble if engaging Europeans at the end of the game - which seemed just about perfect to me.

It looks like China faces less of a challenge in vanilla EU4 than in EU3, but I think that tech disadvantange is all it needs. I can't speak for the balance just yet, but instinctively it seems wrong that China should get an arbitrary decrease to admin points, when it will already face horrendous issues due to tech inefficiency and it's tremendous size. If anything, it should get a bonus, both to partially ameliorate the size issue, and to represent the well-developed Chinese bureaucracy.

 

[Sun_Wu]

I'll just point out that eunuch faction gives a 75% technology discount. That means only 35% extra cost, which isn't really that much.

In exchange you get -50% tax, -1 advisor, +50% stability cost and -50% heir chance

I don't know how troops scale in EU4 as compared to EU3, but in EU3, if you set China's tech group to 70-80% speed, it prevented the ridiculous curb-stomps by 5k Latin infantry in the 1500s, but led to China being in serious trouble if engaging Europeans at the end of the game - which seemed just about perfect to me.

It looks like China faces less of a challenge in vanilla EU4 than in EU3, but I think that tech disadvantange is all it needs. I can't speak for the balance just yet, but instinctively it seems wrong that China should get an arbitrary decrease to admin points, when it will already face horrendous issues due to tech inefficiency and it's tremendous size. If anything, it should get a bonus, both to partially ameliorate the size issue, and to represent the well-developed Chinese bureaucracy.

The hordes tech faster than China in the demo.

 

[Solmyr2000]

In exchange you get -50% tax, -1 advisor, +50% stability cost and -50% heir chance

But you can just switch faction to eunuchs, tech up until you catch up (+neighbour discount) and switch back to bureaucrats. Everyone else in asia can't do this - they have their 50% and 60% (and even 75% in case of hordes) extra tech costs and can't really do much about it. And they also don't have China's huge tax and manpower.

The hordes tech faster than China in the demo.

Well, they start at level 3 while chinese tech group starts at level 2, that's weird indeed.

 

[Heatth]

Well, they start at level 3 while chinese tech group starts at level 2, that's weird indeed.

That is the worst part. I am not sure I follow the reasoning for the Chinese start worse than Europe in tech. Sure, I can understand why the tech lower, but start worse seems kinda irreal.